♪ ♪ >> Hi, welcome to Connections .

I'm P.A.

Bennett.

It's called America's classical music: jazz.

Born and bred of the African-American experience, it is now an international music, loved and appreciated all over the world.

♪ ♪ >> Male speaker: The jazz scene in South Carolina is a very interesting one, actually.

Each place that I've visited, particularly Columbia, where I live, and Charleston, there are plenty of places to go hear jazz, see jazz, and you can see all kinds of different jazz.

♪ ♪ ♪ You can go to certain places in South Carolina, and you'll hear the blues inflection that has permeated throughout jazz and other musics, particularly in the 20th and 21st century.

And so there's no doubt that when you have places that preserve culture, those influences are very strong.

And so if you go to the coast of South Carolina, particularly the Lowcountry, you're gonna hear a lot of the same traditions that you heard many, many years ago, and really there's only one other place like that, in terms of jazz in America, and that's New Orleans, where the tradition has survived and thrived.

♪ ♪ >> With me to talk about South Carolina's place in jazz history and South Carolina today is Dr. Dick Goodwin.

Dr. Goodwin, thank you so much for being with us.

We appreciate it.

>> Well, thank you.

Happy to be here.

>> This discussion about jazz from South Carolina's perspective, as well as the scene today-- it's said, though, that jazz started in New Orleans and that's the birth of jazz in this country.

Do you agree with that or disagree?

>> Well, uh, yes, and I think most people agree that New Orleans was at least one of the principle places, but there were other centers that were equally as active.

Oddly enough, Kansas City.

Of course Chicago and New York.

There wasn't that much going on at that time in jazz on the West Coast, although there's a guy that lives in Camden, Larry Conger, who was in one of the great West Coast bands.

>> And he lives in Camden?

>> Yeah.

>> Interesting.

>> A wonderful player.

>> And what does he play?

>> A cornet.

>> Talk about what was happening in South Carolina during this inception phase, if you will, of jazz.

>> Well, the Jenkins Orphanage in Charleston had a brass band that played for a lot of social events, and what they played probably, as best we can piece together now, were marches and hymn tunes and maybe some popular tunes from the time.

And the instructor there evidently was really fine because the people that were in that orphanage band went out, and went mostly to New York, but were able to really work.

My favorite character of all of those guys was Jabbo Smith, who is a rough contemporary of Louis Armstrong's.

>> And he came out of Jenkins?

>> Out of the Jenkins Orphanage.

And his technique was equal really to Louis Armstrong, maybe a more accurate player, but same kind of range and flexibility, really could get around on the instrument.

And he didn't have the advantage of a record company that put him with the right guys, and he didn't have the charisma that Louis Armstrong had, so he's kind of a footnote now.

But at the time, everybody knew that he was in the same league and really a fantastic player.

>> And what instrument did he play?

>> Trumpet.

>> He played trumpet, and of course we know we have some great folk from right here in South Carolina.

>> Yeah.

Another one, though, out of the Jenkins Orphanage was Cat Anderson, who was the real high-note player for Duke Ellington's band for years and years, just an amazing player, and so he's out of that too.

>> Let me ask you, when we look at-- and I did a little research.

I don't know enough about music to talk intelligently with you.

But when you look at jazz, there are several genres, if you will.

What was most popular here in South Carolina?

>> I think that would be hard to say because, I mean, there are small groups and big bands all over the country and great players coming out of unlikely spots.

Here, when I moved to South Carolina, there were a couple of bebop players that were very notable.

One was Johnny Helms, who's still playing some...

I hope.

And a guy that did a jazz program for a number of years on SCETV Radio was Terry Rosen, who was a guitarist, and he had played with Sammy Davis Jr. and Harry James' big band... you know, real players.

So there were a handful of really hotshot players at that time.

>> So what's the scene for jazz in South Carolina at this point in time?

>> Well, a lot of the jazz has kind of been protected by the universities.

Almost every university has a jazz band and jazz program of some kind.

But early on when there wasn't much of that going on, at South Carolina State there were a number of guys that came through the band there that ended up in Count Basie's band, for example.

And there's a trombonist, a really remarkably talented guy, Ron Westray, who's from Columbia-- in fact, my wife taught him piano when he was a child-- but he went to South Carolina State, went to Illinois for graduate school, but ended up in Wynton Marsalis's band.

And one of his students is now teaching at Claflin, Mitch Butler, who's a great trombonist also.

>> So as far as our appreciating jazz now in South Carolina and there being places for us to go see jazz and appreciate jazz, what's the picture like here in South Carolina?

>> Well, there's usually a jazz club of some kind going, maybe two.

I think there are a couple that are going on now in Columbia, one that I know of in Greenville.

Charleston, in the last few years, has gotten pretty active in jazz.

There's a good big band that Charlton Singleton is running right now, and so there's a lot of activity there.

But, again, you can hear a lot of really great players and good writers and so forth in the universities all over the place.

>> Let's talk about some of the things that you've done in your musical career as relates to jazz.

What do you think inspired you about jazz in general?

>> Well, I had a couple of older cousins that would say, "You've got to listen to this," and my father was a bass player, and so I got to hear live groups quite a bit.

And I was fascinated, actually, with the orchestration aspect of it first, how the different instruments are combined.

I think that's one of the first things that drew me in.

But I've been playing since I was in, I guess, in middle school at different places.

When I was in the service, I was a band director in the Coast Guard, and I had a jazz group within the band there.

>> So you composed; you play.

What's your instrument?

>> Trumpet.

>> Trumpet.

We often get the impression, though, that jazz is mostly improvisational.

Is that true, or is it more leaning now toward actually being able to read music and that kind of thing?

>> Well, I think a lot of the original players weren't readers, but they pretty much have to be now to be able to work and to fit in because they're learning a lot of complex music fairly quickly, which doesn't minimize the importance of having your ear in gear when it's time to play.

There's a difference between the big bands and small groups.

There's more improvisation, generally, in small groups.

If you're playing in a big band, you might have one or two solos that are improvised during the evening, but a lot of what you do is playing a part in that big band, which means you have to understand the style and you have to be a good reader.

>> Is jazz really kind of-- is it an acquired taste, because there are a lot of folk that don't know anything about jazz, say they don't like jazz.

Is it an acquired taste, or just so many different types that most people can fit in somewhere?

>> Well, there are a lot of types.

The traditional jazz, or what we sometimes call Dixieland jazz, there's a Carolina jazz society that's been going for 52 years here in Columbia, and we play traditional jazz.

And I was touring a lot in Latin America with my quintet, and I realized very quickly that people came to a jazz concert with a certain expectation, and I found out that if I didn't play a Louis Armstrong kind of thing, or a Dave Brubeck thing or Chick Corea or anything in between, that they were disappointed because they had a very narrow definition usually, or their taste was very narrow: I like this kind of music.

So I think, yes, it's an acquired taste.

It takes a little bit of putting yourself into the game to appreciate it, I think.

It's not just the bass drum, you know, hitting you in the chest.

>> But when I look at jazz and think about it, you may be a Thelonious Monk or a Kenny G. I mean, are those two extremes?

>> That's pretty extreme, yes.

>> But still are they both jazz?

>> Uh, yes.

Yeah, I think so.

The definition of jazz is pretty broad at this point.

You know, Afro-Cuban jazz.

Smooth jazz, which I guess is sort of what Kenny G does.

>> Is that real jazz?

I have to ask you that because I often wonder.

When I hear--and I don't want to give Kenny G a hard time necessarily-- but that style of jazz, that Kenny G style, if you will, is that jazz?

>> Um, I think most jazz musicians would say no, and Kenny G gets beaten up a lot.

He does have facility on the instrument, and he's not ashamed of what he does.

It's smooth jazz, or what sometimes we'd call Jacuzzi jazz.

No, it's background stuff.

You know, it's too repetitive, generally, for you to sit in the front row and really listen and try to figure out what the guy's doing and try to pick up the nuances.

>> I remember I would hear people that I know from a few years ago, when they would talk about jazz, they were talking about something they called "straight up."

What does that mean?

>> Well, straight-ahead jazz-- >> Oh, straight ahead.

>> Yeah, probably that.

Probably mainstream swing music, maybe bebop.

It really kind of depends on the age of the person that uses the phrase.

>> So where do you think jazz is going today?

Is it moving forward?

Is it continuing to be popular?

What are we seeing today?

>> Well, I don't know that it's a very popular idiom.

It has an audience, like classical music does.

The jazz guys don't play "Sugar Pie, Honey Bunch" all that often, except to survive, and I usually put the horn section together for the Temptations, for example, when they're here.

So we do that, but it involves a lot of the same skills, so we're able to do that.

>> What about jazz vocalists?

Is that a strong part of the whole jazz thing, or are they just sort of a sidebar?

>> I think it's a strong part of it.

I mean, Louis Armstrong would play great trumpet, but would turn around and sing, and he had a style that's unmistakably his and influenced a lot of people.

I mean, Ray Charles started out trying to sound like Nat King Cole and realized that he could have some gravel like Louis Armstrong and made a great career using that sound.

But, really, I think that the vocalists are an important part of it.

I mean, I scat-sing some, but I wouldn't be able to do that if I hadn't listened to everything that I could get my hands on that Ella Fitzgerald did.

>> So do you think that South Carolina is doing its part-- South Carolinians, people like you--are you doing your part to pass jazz on to the younger generation?

>> Yes, I think so.

There are some clubs that make themselves available to young players to sit in, to learn their skills, 'cause that's how most of us, my age, we would go down to the Sunday afternoon jam session, and if you had the courage to get on the stand with the good guys, hold onto your seat, because if they realize you were a new guy, they'll test you right off the bat and call something at a blazing tempo and chord changes all over the map, something like "Cherokee" or some piece that a lot of jazz musicians would say was pretty difficult.

>> So are those jam sessions still around and available for young musicians?

>> Yes.

I think they're a lot kinder than they used to be, but, yes, there are some venues like that.

But, again, in the universities, they put together combos, and the guys get together twice or three times a week and work for an hour, so that's a place where they can learn those skills.

But it's not the same thing as being in front of people and having to really perform.

>> I got ya.

Well, Dr. Goodwin, thank you very much.

I appreciate your being here.

>> Well, thank you.

My pleasure.

I would like to mention one other-- >> Sure.

>> Two other people from South Carolina.

One is Chris Potter.

>> Yeah, I remember Chris!

Young man starting out.

>> Yes, I first heard of him when he was 12 or 13 years old, and he was on "Mr. Knozit" on WIS, and already when he would sit in with my group, he was the best player on the bandstand, hands down.

And Mr. Knozit said, "What are you gonna do when you grow up?"

And he said, "I'm gonna be a jazz musician."

And Joe Pinner, who was Mr. Knozit, said, "Well, what does it take to be a jazz musician?"

And Chris said, "Well, first of all, you have to know some tunes."

And Pinner said, "Well, how many tunes do you know?"

And Chris said, "73."

>> Wow, at 12.

So what's Chris doing now?

This was, what--Chris is still a young man, but that was 20, 25 years ago now?

>> Yeah.

>> So he's doing what now?

>> He's in New York and really playing with the heavyweight players.

I hear from him.

He's touring in Europe or whatever.

He's really a world-class player.

And of course the one we didn't mention is Dizzy Gillespie.

>> Absolutely, and we're gonna talk more about him.

We're gonna actually have his official biographer on to talk about Dizzy Gillespie.

>> Well, he's really one of the good guys, and I got to play with him two or three times.

It was just spectacular.

>> Doctor, again, thank you so much, and thank you for bringing up Chris.

I hadn't thought about him in a while.

>> Okay.

Thank you.

>> Yes, Dizzy Gillespie, one of the greatest jazz trumpet players of our time, was born in Cheraw, South Carolina, in 1917.

He's credited with launching the so-called bebop movement in jazz.

Dizzy died in 1993, but "Connections" director Ricky Taylor talked with his official biographer, Mr. Al Fraser.

♪ ♪ >> Fraser: As a South Carolinian, Dizzy is especially important because all those elements that we talked about-- multirhythm, polyrhythms-- were then made modernized and brought into the music which he presented to the world.

So Gillespie's music is different from straight, 4/4 blues music, which predominated in most parts of the United States at the time.

He was bluesy because everyone who played American music was steeped in the blues, but he was also different in that he had a different sense of rhythm and of style, how one got from note to note.

So Dizzy Gillespie, by picking up on Jabbo Smith, who was also a South Carolinian, earlier than he was, began to play trumpet in a much different way and in a more modern way than most trumpeters of his time, and so he liked that about Jabbo's model, and he began to adapt it and to make that style his own.

Jenkins Orphanage is one of the early efforts to salvage African-American youth.

These young musicians, who were always very exuberant and many of whom came from this area, were born in this area-- certainly, most of them came from the Lowcountry, although not all came from Charleston-- began to create a sound that was a little different from what was normally heard at the time.

It was a syncopated sound.

It was a sound that had a lot of polyrhythms in it.

That is more than one rhythm sounding at a time.

And there were harmonics that were different as well.

These young people started to play, also, improvisational music.

Improvisation, the art of taking what is and making something a little different, perhaps better, from it, that was what the Jenkins Orphanage musicians were doing, and this is something very few musicians could do well at the time.

So the Jenkins Orphanage bands began to play music that they heard, and the syncopation and the polyrhythms that were associated with it tended to make people very lively, to make them dance.

You heard a Charleston beat come into existence.

You know, boom-boom, a-boom-boom, a-boom-boom, boom-boom.

So you're talking about Charleston at the time, and there was a dance later on on that same theme.

But these were the kinds of sounds that the Jenkins Orphanage bands made, and those sounds became some of the roots of what we know as jazz music.

What this band did, the Jenkins Orphanage Band and all these other bands, was to create and help people who were, to a large extent, helpless in a very hostile and oppressed situation, and help them propagate themselves, re-create themselves, and uplift themselves through music.

That gift of jazz is a gift that was given to not just the African Americans, but to all Americans, and so that's why we see today all people in the United States, of whatever cultural background or ethnic background they may come from, are familiar with jazz music and have developed some basic appreciation for jazz music because it's a part of their identity as Americans.

>> You may think about the '40s when you hear the big band sound, but Mr. Gene Dykes carries on the big band jazz tradition with his group of talented musicians.

[♪ "Can't Take My Eyes off You" ♪] ♪ >> Dykes: This has been a tremendous career for me, and I knew, after I came out of the Navy and I heard the Air Force had a band program, I knew from that point on it would be my career.

I was stationed at Pier 92 on a ship tied up in New York.

So I used to go listen to Dizzy Gillespie and Woody Herman and Stan Kenton, all those big bands, and Coleman Hawkins.

All up and down 52nd Street, there were clubs-- the Onyx Club-- and once you hit 52nd Street, you could hear all the players, piano players, everything.

♪ We were classified as some of the best players at that time 'cause nobody could touch Lucius and myself on the saxophone.

We were tough.

You study your chord progressions, and you practice, and all of a sudden, they come to mind.

You could play anything... anything.

Any tune that I heard, I could play it right now.

In this band here, I've got 482 tunes.

♪ You can tell a story, you can be sad, and you can be lively, and people just flip over it.

But it's a good art form, and I don't think I would be happy playing anything else after all these years.

>> And we really want to hear from you.

Our mailing address is... Well, that's our show.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Remember, stay connected.

I'm P.A.

Bennett, and I'll see you next time, right here on Connections .

Captioned by: CompuScripts Captioning www.compuscripts.com ♪ ♪