>> Illinois became the first state to eliminate cash bail exactly one year ago today, the Pretrial Fairness Act meant most defendants would remain free with court conditions rather than spend time in jail until they could post bond supporters say the laws intended to address equity issues.

While opponents feared a spike in crime.

New research paints a preliminary picture.

Joining us now, our Cook County State's Attorney, Kim Foxx.

And on Zoom, Clay County State's Attorney Philip Givens.

Thanks to you both for joining us.

Kim Foxx, starting with you, please.

Do you think the Pretrial Fairness Act has accomplished what you wanted to?

>> Certainly the preliminary results are very promising.

What we knew was that cash bail was not an indicator of public safety.

The people who were charged with violent offenses who couldn't get access to cash or allowed to walk free while others who are charged with nonviolent offenses.

We spent time in jail until they could post bond and what we've seen in the one year that been doing this is that we've not seen an increase in crime, which a lot of detractors were trying to use as a cudgel to not support this legislation.

And we've also seen people returning for their court dates, which is the intended purpose by.

And so I think the preliminary results are very promising its early.

Certainly there's things that we want to continue to look at and see for trend.

But right now, I think it is having its intended effect and we're going to get into some of that data as well.

Fill Givens.

How do you think it's gone?

>> I think for Cook County, that's probably all true.

But further down state, Illinois, where where I am, I don't feel that it's the preliminary numbers.

Don't fit what I foresee happening in the long term.

I think that getting rid of cash bill has wow, maybe not decreased.

Crime or increase crime and its remain the same.

And what we are failing to mention is that criminals.

Although they do stupid things and commit crimes, they're also somewhat savvy.

And they are aware that a new law came out where they don't have to post bail and they are learning what they can do and what they can do to remain out and not have to go back in custody.

And that does not necessarily mean they're being held accountable as they should.

And it doesn't mean that overall crime is going to continue to trend anywhere.

Family.

>> Jill Givens, you're also part of the original lawsuit that oppose the Pretrial Fairness Act.

Among your concerns was a lack of control for prosecutors and for judges.

Have you seen that lack of control or perceived lack of control play out in courtrooms?

>> Absolutely.

At least once a week the most frustrating part not only my job, especially down here law enforcement as well as judges that we're being told what offenses are table and what offenses are not attainable.

I'll give you a prime example class for possession of fentanyl.

Very deadly track.

Where a grain of salt of it as a class 4 felony.

However, that grain of salt for non drug user of it, those anywhere near someone else, they will die.

So that is very concerning that that is not the table.

We can't even argue that the person wouldn't appear in court.

We can argue whether or not they've had several failures to appear because it's a Class 4 felony.

That Tying our hands.

Very frustrating.

Whenever we have the community that has drug epidemics, especially in southern Illinois that we have look to our community and say.

Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do.

But that was one of the main concerns that that I had moving forward with this legislation.

>> Another one of your concern concerns was the crime rates.

So we mentioned the date, of course, analyzed by the Loyola Center for Criminal Justice that shows comparing the first 6 months of 2023 with the first 6 months of 2024. violent crime decreased by about 7.5% property crimes, 14% for a total of 12%.

Little over 12% is what they're saying he'll give.

And it sounds like you're not seeing that reflected Clay County.

>> I'm not you know, I don't really see a difference in terms of violent crimes as opposed to what we had before.

You know, the sad part about violent crimes is violent crimes.

Willis's has also like last 3 aggravated battery of a child.

I mean, there's no great bodily harm.

child.

I can't detain.

The pre-emption is to let that defendant go.

I can try to argue a threat great bodily harm, but how is that anywhere near something that's helpful and, you from what I'm seeing is there's pretty consistent trend are crimes of the same law enforcement's getting frustrated because some of the stats that we would be able to hold someone on even for a little while because what people fail to mention that before the Pretrial Fairness Act went into effect.

On these class threes and fours where they did have a low bond.

They were getting $30 a day.

So while they were in custody.

If they have jobs, if they had things going for them, if they had ways we've got to use our discretion in terms of where that was that in the crime that we had.

We also got to use our discretion and how much of a bond we would ask for judges had that discussion the Senate and they got $30 day.

So they were getting out.

It's not like they were spending months and months in jail.

Kim talks interview.

Don't talk about.

>> So if you know, Cook County being very different from down state Clay County, more world, the types of crimes that are being prosecuted.

Prosecutor there and the people somewhat different than what you're seeing here in Cook County.

Is this the kind of law that could have widespread application across the state?

And obviously we can't have different rules for different counties.

Absolutely.

We've seen that play out over the last year high.

I, you know, respectfully with the Clay County State's attorney.

That's not what I'm hearing out in the data across the state.

In fact, I just read.

>> From the chief judge of Saint Clair County, which is downstate Illinois, who said the elimination of cash bail has been going very well that they're able to detain the people who need to be detained and people who need to go free are free.

The data that you cited to the state's attorney is statewide data.

It's not just Cook County.

They did.

It is statewide data and the purposes of bail.

To be clear cash bail was someone who was a danger to the community or a flight risk.

And what part of the the key?

Fear-mongering that happened in the lead up to the implementation of the Pretrial Fairness Act was a crime was going to go up.

So when I hear my colleagues say, well, no crime hasn't gone up.

Then what we're telling me is cash bail, deepening, determined people committing more crimes.

You're telling me that by saying, but that hasn't happened.

And if that crime is going down, no one is saying that the pretrial fairness that is causing crime to go down, no one can make that claim.

But what we are saying is that if if cash where the determinant of who was a danger to the community and we've eliminated that from the equation and we've not seen a rise in crime.

Then there was not a necessity to do that.

And so certainly wanting to be able to evaluate these cases on an individual basis to hold people who should be held and make sure that we have the list of 10 double offenses that are fair and equitable.

But I think disingenuous to say that state why this has not been a success based on the research that has come in so far.

>> Research also shows that the link the pretrial hearings has increased from 4 minutes to 60 minutes.

What's getting accomplished in these hearings?

That takes more time.

That wasn't happening before?

certainly for survive.

I have to remind folks that people who are charged with crimes by the state attorneys and their various counties are presumed to be innocent.

>> And so part of this is requiring states attorneys to show what evidence that we will be able to present.

It is having the opportunity for witnesses if there need to be there to come forward.

It's has the opportunity for us to have victims, for example, in cases of domestic violence, we're seeing more instances with people charged with domestic violence being detained in ways that we weren't seen prior to the Pretrial Fairness Act, there's more opportunity for a different defense to present mitigation.

And most importantly, the judge has to make a record a clear record about why someone is being detained or what conditions that they need.

And so it's more thoughtful process.

And I would say it's absolutely necessary to be that thoughtful because we are detaining people who are innocent until proven guilty in denying them their access to freedom.

And while I I can imagine the $30 a day may seem robust for some that is not equate to what it means to detect and to deny someone their freedom pre-trial to participate in their defense when they've not been convicted of a crime.

>> You also you mentioned some of the quote, unquote fear mongering that happened in advance of the Pretrial Fairness Act in as recently as last week, you said some of that opposition, a straight-up racist.

I did.

And why listen, they we can have disagreements and certainly the Clay County state attorney was a part of a coalition of states attorneys across the state.

>> Who filed legal action to prevent the implementation of the Pretrial Fairness Act.

And that matter heard in court all the way up to the Supreme Court as litigators, we should be able to litigate what I saw, however, was language like the purge.

What I saw was Dan Bailey and and Prof send out newspapers, fake news papers that had on the cover faces of Black and Brown darkened saying Chicago's problems are coming to your neighborhood, the rhetoric that was used around what this would mean and what would happen on that first day was absolutely steeped in race and it is something quite honestly that I brought up to the Illinois State Attorneys Association because I was quite offended as the only black state to state attorney in the state of Illinois to see that type of rhetoric.

Again, we can have policy debates, but using phrases like the purge sending out flyers with dark and faces a black man was rooted in something deeper than a policy disagreement.

And I feel that it's necessary to call a thing.

A thing.

>> According to the Loyola data that that we've been referring to monitoring 77 counties, prosecutors did not petition to have someone detained in 43% of cases in which they could still given says that show that the list of detain a bull offenses is broad enough.

Is that something you would like to see?

>> I would like to see the table offenses.

I brought a little bit more mainly time.

I give you a prime example.

One I would like to see on.

There's aggravated battery of a peace officer.

you charge aggravated battery to peace officer which is a class, 2 felony.

If the person doesn't have.

The history willful flight.

That's that's not detained.

What does that tell our law enforcement?

while you're doing your job, someone can show you to the ground.

And while you're doing your job, they can aren't you in the face as long as it's not great bodily harm, as long as you just get a bruise, we can't hold.

That's in no way, shape or form any form of racism, any form of anything the way I look at it in the issues with the Pretrial Fairness Act and I do agree with one thing in this park said what it has done is we do take more time in terms of detaining someone.

simple probable cause statement simple prob, probable cause information I read by an officer was all it took before.

I will agree with that that I do actually appreciate the fact that we do get to put more on the record and the judge just get to hear more, which when we asked to detain someone, there's a reason.

And I like to take into effect that I believe my colleagues Mr. Sparkes included.

When you look to detain someone, there's a reason.

And I believe that we would set bonds and asked for bonds at certain prices and hides for the same reason.

>> Okay.

Now to business just quick.

This is on.

According one point and saying that people lose their jobs if they're detained with cash, bail on domestic batteries and things like that, if there wasn't a serious physical harm.

>> They were able to post just the same as being detain our we let them out.

What we do is look at the similarities and we try to do the best we can for not only.

Our side.

So I was defense.

2 were in the best interest of justice.

And sounds like obviously it is not.

It not.

It done without complications without a lot of thought from.

>> You and the teams that both of you work with.

Sadly, that is where we'll have to leave it.

We can talk about it all