♪ Welcome to Palmetto Perspectives .

I'm Thelisha Eaddy.

More Americans died of gun related injuries in 2020 than any other year on record.

That's according to the CDC.

And so far this year, there have been more than 300 mass shootings in the country.

That's according to the Gun Violence Archive.

The rise in gun violence is not only sparking shock and outrage, but also, what many may call, progress on the issue.

For the first time in nearly three decades, Congress has passed bipartisan gun legislation.

So tonight our group of stakeholders will discuss how we can stop these senseless shootings while still protecting our 2nd Amendment right.

As always, your voice is vital, and tonight's conversation, we want you to leave a question or comment on our Facebook page at South Carolina ETV.

And our very own Gavin Jackson will take those comments or questions live on air.

Joining us in studio is Byron Gibson, Solicitor from the 5th Judicial Circuit here in South Carolina.

Representative Jermaine Johnson, a Democrat representing Richland and Kershaw counties.

Bishop Eric Davis, Pastor and founder of the Word of God Church and Ministries in Columbia.

And Kassy Alia Ray.

She is founder and CEO of Serve and Protect, a nonprofit organization focused on building Police - Community relationships.

There we go, building Police- Community relationships, very important work.

Thank you all for being here this evening.

We greatly appreciate your time.

So this past year we've seen unfathomable tragedies involving guns at schools, at grocery stores and malls and parades, and unfortunately, some of those shootings have taken place right here in South Carolina.

Right now, we turn to a report from Gavin Jackson.

Gavin>> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention ranked South Carolina 17th in the nation for the number of people who died by a gun in 2020.

Cut to the first six months of 2022, and there's already been a string of mass shootings in our state.

[News Reporter speaking] [sirens blaring] Police say 3 armed persons of interest are in custody after a mass shooting at this Columbia, South Carolina mall left 12 people injured.

Authorities say 10 were shot.

Two more victims were hurt during a stampede according to police, who say no one was killed.

Police say the first 911 call came in just after 2 PM today, someone hearing gunfire near The Gap, at Columbiana Center Mall.

>> We begin our news coverage tonight with another mass shooting in South Carolina, this time in Hampton County where at least nine people were shot early this morning.

We've learned that this happened about 30 minutes north of Hardeeville in Furman.

Our Andy Cole spoke with witnesses and the lounge's owner.

>> I'm here at Cara's Lounge in Hampton County, South Carolina, where overnight nine people were shot, making this the site of the 2nd mass shooting in South Carolina in just 24 hours Gavin>> Days before, gunshots rang out near a little league game in North Charleston leading to a frightening scene, but luckily no one was injured.

[crowd chatter] [pops of gunfire] [News Reporter 2] In the span of less than 15 hours, Newberry police are investigating the deaths of four teenagers who were all shot in the Wise Street Community.

The first shooting was Sunday, just after midnight.

The victim, a sixteen-year-old.

Then around 3 PM, 3 more teens were shot and killed.

Newberry police Chief Kevin Goodman says the victims were between the ages of 15 to 19.

Sheriff Lott>> First thing to realize, it's not a law enforcement problem.

This is a community problem.

Until we address it as a community, we're going to continue to have this.

We just got young people who think a gun is the answer to everything they have, any problem they have, any disrespect they get.

Conflict resolution doesn't exist for them, except with the gun.

And so we've got to change the minds and the hearts of our young people and let them know guns will get them one of two places: cemetery or in prison.

Gavin>> The shootings led to calls for common-sense bipartisan reforms from state lawmakers in the final weeks of the 2022 legislative session.

No major gun legislation has passed the State House since the Open Carry with Training Law last year.

>> Carrying an unlawful weapon carries up to one year and up to $1,000.

Many, many of these charges end up being reduced in some sort of city or municipal court or put in pre-trial intervention or deferred in some way and no one ever faces the consequences of carrying a gun illegally.

Now, if you get a permit, you can carry it anywhere.

If you get a permit, you can strap it on and carry it, open carry it.

But if we don't do something to stop this, these weapons being carried primarily by kids...

I mean we, up in the upstate, we had a 12 year old shoot a 12 year old, a 12 year old shoot a 12 year old, murder him.

The easy accessibility to guns by these young people mostly, and their ability to carry them or feel like they can carry them anywhere, is killing us and them.

Gavin>> Lawmakers are expected to push for unlawful possession changes next year, while others push to loosen current laws.

Thelisha>> That was Gavin Jackson reporting.

Gavin, thank you for that report.

Solicitor Gibson, what are the current gun laws here in South Carolina?

>> You have several, but just to kind of piggyback on, I think, Senator Harpootlian's last point, he was speaking of unlawful carrying of a pistol, and that is essentially a law that says that if you have a pistol, and you do not have a concealed weapons permit, you're only allowed to have it in certain places.

So, for instance, if you, if you are a shopkeeper and you're going back and forth, maybe you're a barber going back and forth to your car, then from your car to the home, you can have it.

But if you're in your car, it needs to be secured in a specific manner, meaning either in a glove compartment, like glove box, a console, or in the back of the vehicle in some type of closed compartment.

And so, if you don't have it stowed away properly, you can be charged with unlawful carrying of the pistol, and as Senator Harpootlian mentioned, the sentence for that is up to a year in jail and a fine of up to $1,000, that's it.

So if it happens one time, if it happens two times, if it happens 10 or 15 times, it's up to one year in jail, up to a $1,000 fine.

So that's one of the more important laws that we talked about, and the fact that there need to be some changes there to hold people more accountable for being charged multiple times for carrying a pistol unlawfulfully and improperly.

Thelisha>> In that report we just heard from Gavin, we revisited recent shootings, but of course, there have been many more.

Couple that with recent headlines, like South Carolina ranking 9th in the nation when it comes to the percentage of residents killed by guns.

Where do you see the greatest need for gun reform here in the Palmetto State?

>> I mean, I think it starts with the carrying of pistols.

I think that it starts from, you know, the county level, the city level, those areas and through legislation.

If legislation is in place that penalizes folks who are carrying weapons unlawfully, improperly, and who do it multiple times through kind of what we call a graduated system, and when I say that, I mean, a first offense, second offense, third offense.

So for instance, if you shoplift one time, that's shoplifting first.

If you're convicted and you do it a second time, it becomes a second offense and thereforth and thereon, it gets more, the penalty is higher each time.

That's the same for DUI.

That's the same for domestic violence.

That's the same for driving without a license, but that doesn't exist for gunlaws.

So if you have a graduated offense, which means anytime you're convicted the penalty is more harsh, then that's when you start to have more of a deterrent effect and people begin to understand, hey, I can't do this each time because there's going to be a harsher penalty every time I do it.

And without that, then you essentially have a law that doesn't have that much...

There's not much punch to it.

There aren't many teeth to it because it's always going to be the same sentence and there's never a more harsh sentence.

And you'll see that oftentimes courts are less likely to send somebody to jail on something like that because it's nonviolent.

There's a fine that is generated, and very few people get sentenced to jail that I've seen in my 20-plus years of practicing for unlawful carrying of a pistol.

>> Representative Johnson, what legislative pieces have been put forth in recent years to help solve this issue?

And you, like many people on our panel and many people watching and listening, have been impacted personally by gun violence.

But what has been put forth in recent years to help solve this problem?

>> Well, every single year we put forth something, and every single year, it gets shut down because we have individuals who want to prioritize the hobby of owning guns over the lives of South Carolinians, you know.

And that's one of the things that we have to address.

Just this past session, I introduced some legislation that has to do with the negligent storage law.

So we don't have a negligent storage law here in South Carolina.

So, you know, if I wanted to come out and put my gun somewhere and just leave it on the ground, and somebody was able to pick it up and go commit a crime, I could not be charged with anything.

I couldn't be charged with that because there's no law against it.

There's also no law in South Carolina that says that I have to report my gun stolen if my gun is stolen.

So we have guns that are floating around the state of South Carolina right now that are stolen guns that are being used in crimes all across the state and nobody knows they're stolen, nobody knows to be looking for them, whether that's because somebody who owned the gun was too embarrassed to tell somebody that his, you know, that his gun was stolen, or misplaced it or whatever.

But the fact is that these guns are stolen and they're being used in crimes right now.

So, you know, I've introduced legislation for that situation.

But every year these bills, they don't, they never get heard.

They sit in committee.

They die in committee.

And I've tried to circumvent that.

I went and I've reached out to the representatives of the NRA, and I spoke with them about it, and I said, you know, "What can we do about this situation?

How can we come together?"

I said, you know, "I don't want to have to go out there and bash you, you know, I believe in your right to carry or whatever, you know, responsible gun ownership."

But what they said is they don't believe in any legislation that's going to punish somebody for not reporting their guns stolen.

They don't believe in anything that's going to punish an individual who has the right to bear arms, and that's a problem, because, you know, we don't see anybody in South Carolina trying to tighten the gun laws.

We see them trying to loosen the gun laws and we see people being killed every single day.

Last night we saw a young kid get killed and they're not trying to tighten the laws up, they're trying to loosen them, and I can only see this problem getting worse.

>> Do you think there's a need to reframe the conversation around gun reform when people hear that, and maybe their minds go straight to gun control, and then after that, their mind goes to you're trying to infringe on my rights ?

Do you think the conversation should shift more to maybe This is a public health issue.

Is a reframing of this conversation needed to get past some of the blockade that you're seeing in Columbia?

>> I think so, and I think we also have to take the time to sit down and explain to people what laws we do have in South Carolina and what laws we don't have.

Because every time that I mention the fact that, hey, there's no law in South Carolina that says you have to report your gun stolen, even the strong 2nd Amendment, you know, individuals are like, "Wow, there's no law that says that?"

They say, "That should probably be a law."

Even those individuals agree with what I'm saying that hey, we need to put a law there, at least to mandate you to report your gun stolen, if your gun is stolen.

So I definitely think we have to reframe the conversation.

We got to get people to understanding the health issue that we're dealing with because people and young people are losing their lives.

And right now we have to figure out a way to hold the parents accountable for what these children are doing because just like we were just talking about here when there's young people out here killing each other, you know, nobody's being held accountable for this, nobody's been held accountable for these children being out 3:00, 4:00 in the morning, checking your car doors, looking for guns that are being negligently stored in your car.

So I think we have to be able to get people to stop saying them, they , over there , and say we.

We need to do something and get a collective buy-in, and I think we can change some things.

>> What are some ways that you have seen people successfully get folks to the table to have that collective buy-in, for those listening and watching?

What insights can you offer for people to take to their communities to have these conversations started?

>> Well, the thing is, I think we need to do things like what Bishop Davis is doing with his initiative.

You know, getting people who have been affected by gun violence to start talking about this things.

I had a couple of community meetings with mothers who were affected by gun violence, and the next day, I had a meeting with fathers who were affected by gun violence, and the tears that were shared in these meetings, not only by the women that were in these meetings, but by the men who had lost sons, who had lost daughters, who had lost friends, and uncles, and brothers, to gun violence.

And, you know, they at one time were involved with guns and carrying guns, but once it affected them personally, it became a paradigm shift for them, and they realized that they need to stop and they need to do something to give back to change some of these things.

I myself, my older brother was murdered by his best friend, so I know personally, the effects of what it does.

There's not a day that goes by that I don't think about the relationship that I could have had with my brother, because he was taken when I was - at such a young age.

So, some of these things, you know, we have to make sure that people don't have to, you know, have to have it personally affect them.

But we need people to really start to be able to empathize and sympathize with other individuals who have already gone through this type of situation.

And I think we can bring the communities together.

>> There have been many conversations like this one before where we have community stakeholders introducing the topic and then talking to come up with some solutions and what we hear during these events is that just one answer is not going to solve this problem and that the role of the community is just as important as the laws that we pass and reinforce to help us solve this problem.

So Kassy, I want to come to you, because like Representative Johnson here, you have been personally touched by gun violence, and that touch has prompted you to start an organization that helps other people to hopefully not experience what you experienced.

How long have you been working in this space?

What are some of your key programs, and where are you seeing successes?

What's working?

>> Thank you so much for having me on.

And first, I want to piggyback on something that Representative Johnson said that I couldn't agree with more, that we have to see that this issue impacts all of us.

And I'm a very clear example of that to my husband who was a police officer that was shot and killed in the line of duty.

From what I've learned the gun that was used to shoot him was illegally obtained, stolen from what I gather, from a glove box, and that really highlights when people are thinking about my rights, my ability, when we think about the impact, the ripple effects that our decisions can have on others that, you know, personally, I've felt it firsthand, but also, I'm very considerate of, I'm a mother of two and wanting to make sure that my little boys are safe as well.

And I think we need to see it's not just my little boys but that the community, our neighbors as my family as well.

And the decisions that we have have those ripple effects.

And that's really at the heart and soul of what my organization Serve and Connect is focused on.

So it's the nonprofit I founded after my husband was killed, and our mission is to foster positive change through sustainable police and community partnerships.

Our vision is a future where police and citizens are working together as one community to address root causes of crime and promote safety so that everyone can thrive.

We don't believe in us versus them.

We believe that at the end of the day, what we police, citizens want is more the same than it is different.

That we want our communities to be safe, our families to be protected and our children to thrive.

But in order to make that possible, we have to work together.

And so we really push back on this us versus them perspective to bring people together, because we believe that together we are better.

And when we work together, we create a better future for us all.

We are not only focused on violent crime.

Really, what we're focused on is bringing police and citizens together because we believe that the answers to tackle some of our most significant challenges lies in those who live and serve in communities, but it's hard for us to work together to make that happen when we're so fragmented.

Trust is so fractured, and following a pandemic in particular, we are living in such silos and isolation that it is hard to come together.

And so my organization really focuses on how we can be that bridge; bring police, citizens, social services organizations, municipal services, city government together as one team, one community to tackle issues.

And that's precisely what needs to happen when it comes to addressing violence.

I've been proud of the progress that we've seen in a short period of time.

In particular, our Compass program focuses on bringing police and citizens together to develop locally driven movements where they are tackling the most significant challenges they face in a community.

And I'll never forget this one woman who lived in one of our highest crime neighborhoods.

She got involved with our work, sort of joining our weekly meetings, even became a leader in her own neighborhood, helping other women in her community and through that, fast forward.

What I came to learn is that the impact of this work on her personally, she said that because of this effort, before we had started doing work, her and her, three children were sleeping in a small bedroom in the back of her apartment because she was scared of stray bullets.

But because of the work, she felt safe enough to sleep in separate bedrooms at night and think about what that does for a young child to get a good rest at night and for the mother to get good rest at night, and to not fear being hit by stray bullets.

And I know that we have only so much time, but these are the stories that I'm proud to hear and we need to hear more of them but it will only happen when we come together.

Thelisha>> Bishop Davis, you recently held a meeting with law enforcement and members of the community that have a unique perspective on this issue.

Tell me how did that meeting come to be and what were some of your takeaways?

>> Well, interestingly enough it happened after I had a meeting with Kassy and another local leader, and the mayor, and one of the things that happened at that meeting for me, is I realized that we needed to take it to a grassroot level.

I said that at the meeting that if we're going to affect change, it has to begin in the places where a lot of the violence arises from.

And in order to do that, you have to find the influencers, the leaders, the people who can have impact in that community.

So we were able to pull together, we're now calling Street Ambassadors.

They were our former gang members / leaders that have chosen to be advocates for change.

And you know, first of all, we had to broker relationship and peace among them.

They've known each other for years, and I was amazed to find out, and they were much younger, they were some of the most violent people in the community, and so as a result, they have tremendous influence, because they've been kind of, you know, made heroes in those types of atmospheres and communities.

So to see those former heroes who were agents for the wrong atmosphere now come back and become advocates for change has been tremendously important, and for two months, we had no gun violence among the gangs in the community, no shootings, no killings in the hot communities, because these ambassadors are able to do what I can't do as a pastor, what the police chief, nor sheriff and the deputy can do.

They can go right in and have direct influence by virtue of who they are.

And it was impactful until this week when we were battling with County Council, who did not see it as the emergency that we saw it as and the sheriff saw it as, on May 26 when he called an emergency press conference saying that we were losing a generation of young people, following their press conference, we held ours a week after because this group had emerged on May 4th and the process began, they were going into communities.

And we wanted the community to know why we saw such a sudden change, because of the ground work that they were doing, hoping that the broader community would put as much value on the work that they were doing as we did.

But that wasn't the case, and as a result, as Representative just said, we lost a 17 year old soul last night in what was presumed to have been a gang shooting, all because, I think, matters of the heart.

You know, we asked the community to, as Kassy was saying a minute ago, to empathize and sympathize with single mothers, for example, who are laying in beds and bullets are whizzing all over their communities.

When I looked at the North Charleston shooting and I listened to the report a minute ago, the reporter said, "Fortunately, no one was injured," but I believe the reporter was referring to those who are on the field.

See, my question was with that many rounds firing in a neighborhood that was nearby: Were there any fatalities or shootings in that community?

And what about the babies of the children that were trapped in that community that had to listen to that gun violence?

So, I think that the empathy and the state of emergency and the sense of emergency has to be broader.

We don't only have to start from the top level, which is the legislative level, judicial levels, legal and law enforcement levels.

We have to meet at a grass root level.

And my job is not to deal with the 2nd Amendment.

I deal with the 6th Commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

That's a matter of heart.

And, you know, scripture tells us if you live by the sword, you die by it, and I think that's where we, in terms of my role, my job, we have to begin there, and I thank God that those Street Ambassadors took that message and they're now applying it.

>> If you're just joining us, this is Palmetto Perspectives .

I'm Thelisha Eaddy.

Tonight, we are talking about how to stop the rise in gun violence while protecting our 2nd Amendment right.

Many of you are participating in tonight's conversation on our social media page and our Facebook page at South Carolina ETV, and we turn now to Gavin Jackson, who has a comment from Facebook.

>> Thanks, Thelisha.

Solicitor, we have a question for you talking about background checks and the Charleston loophole, and I just want to ask you, can you talk to us about what the Charleston loophole is?

And what do you think needs to be done to improve background checks to make sure such situations don't happen like we saw in Charleston?

>> I mean, I think it begins with again, we always talk about legislation and it's not passing the buck, but I think if we have a stronger presence when it comes to legislation saying, "Hey, this is what's going to happen.

"This is what's acceptable.

This is what the law is."

and when we lay out the factors that lead to what will close these loopholes, I mean, that's where it starts.

And so as Representative Johnson mentioned, just being able to be in a position where legislators start looking at how it affects all of us and not just, you know, not just who's endorsing me.

Where is my money going to come from?

They look out and say, "Hey, these are constituents that are being affected by what's happening out here," and start looking more kind of in that area.

I mean, I think that's where we're going to find a biggest change.

So the simple answer to me is it starts with legislation.

When we talk about communities and policing, it starts with community members.

Now, understanding what the law is, understanding what the loopholes are, and then working to close it.

There's a meme that I've seen often times.

It says, you know, when these bad things happen, when gun violence happens, you have thoughts, you have prayers.

But there's never any action.

And so the action has to be communities coming in and understanding that, you know, we vote, we empower these legislators, these solicitors and others to do the jobs that they do.

And so these are the things that are important to us, and they have to hold us accountable, all of us, regardless of party, accountable for what the laws are and how those laws are enforced.

And so if this is truly something that's important, then you know, our communities have to speak up, and they have to communicate and let these legislators know, and let, again, I'm an elected official as well, let all of us know their position.

And then we have to be empowered to go and do the job of the communities and lead in that fashion.

So it starts with legislation, and then we, you know, as solicitors, as prosecutors, have to enforce what that law is.

And we have to go after it, and do the best that we can with the laws that we have.

And if we change those laws, we're in a better position to close those loopholes and hold people accountable when they, when they violate.

Gavin>> So we're talking about that loophole what Representative Johnson said, and I don't want to go there yet but I want to ask you just what could be done?

What's the appetite for closing that Charleston loophole, because it has been pretty divisive on both sides of the aisle.

>> Yeah, you know, there's really nothing that my colleagues are really attempting to do.

You know, they've all pretty much said that I'm the one who's kind of leading this charge in the General Assembly at the Statehouse.

and I'm, you know, I constantly go to the to the committee chairs, you know, once a week to say, "Hey, listen, "Is my bill going to be heard?

"Is it going to get a hearing?

Is there going to be a hearing?"

And, you know, I constantly get met with "We'll see, we'll talk about it.

We'll see, we'll talk about it."

You know, there's no real sense of urgency, you know?

And I pull some of the representatives out, and I let them know, "Hey, listen, somebody was just killed in your district last night," or "Somebody was killed in your area last night, or "Somebody was killed here," or "There was a shooting here," and it's, "Oh, my God, "I can't believe somebody was killed there.

Oh, what can we do?"

I say, "Well, you know, I've got two bills "that are up there.

You can help me get these passed."

"All right, we'll see," you know, there's no real sense of urgency that we have in South Carolina because of the stronghold that these lobbyist organizations have on these legislators.

You know, they're giving so much money to him, that it's like, "Well, you know, "I don't know if this is important enough for me to step step aside or to do, you know, do something different, because, you know, what we see right now is when we have individuals who are on the Republican side or the other side, you know, that are for these things, what we see is when they do something that, you know, would benefit, you know, the masses, a lot of them get outcast, you know, and it's a scary thing to do when you have to go against what the majority is saying, you know, so it's kind of a lose-lose battle.

It's like they would have to be ready to pretty much lose, be primaried and lose, you know, in order for them to come out and support us for something like this.

Gavin>> And just to follow up fairly quickly, Rep. Johnson, so just on that vein, I mean, we're talking about Republicans control both the House and the Senate.

So I mean, with that being said, and what we saw in recent primaries, the House, at least, you know, there's so much infighting with the Republican party as well, that it doesn't even seem like there would be an appetite to even do something that's as common sense as making sure that background checks are thoroughly done and completed before someone can obtain a gun.

Rep. Johnson>> That's absolutely correct.

And like you just mentioned, because the Republicans do control the House and the Senate, if they want to change something, they could do it.

They do not need my vote to change it.

They don't need any of my colleagues' votes to change it.

If they want to change something, they could change it with the stroke of a pen right now.

You know, we see how quickly they, you know, brought up the abortion laws and how quickly we brought up some of those things, how these things were signed into law.

You know, we could do the same thing with gun laws.

We could do the exact same thing, but there's just no sense of urgency right now, because a lot of times things have to come laying at your doorstep before you take it serious, you know, and unfortunately, these things have been laying at my doorstep.

You know, I was sitting outside of a Little Caesars not too long ago, and all of a sudden I hear about 20 gunshots ring out, you know, right next to my car.

And the shooter runs past the front of my car.

I get out of my car looking to see what's going on, and there's a guy running through the street that had just been shot, and I'm running to the middle of the street, trying to help this guy who's bleeding down his leg, and I'm trying to get him to calm down, but he's in shock at this moment, and we get the police to come out and the ambulance, and I'm trying to talk him out of, you know, retaliating and doing these things.

And what happens is, you know, the guy calls me the next day, says, you know, "Thank you so much for trying to help me.

I apologize for being out of sorts," and everything like that.

He says, "I'm going to cooperate."

He cooperates, they arrest the guy.

Two weeks later, the guy's let out.

So we have all these situations where you tell these young men not to retaliate, you tell them to do the right thing, they do the right thing, and then now they're snitches.

They can't go back to their neighborhood because now they have a target on their back, and the guy who just shot him was let out the next week.

So what type of alternatives are we giving these people to actually do the right thing and cooperate with law enforcement?

Thelisha>> All right, thank you for those comments from Facebook, and don't forget that handle on Facebook is South Carolina ETV.

You can share your comments or questions with our panel tonight.

Solicitor Gibson, I want to come back to you because you were also at that meeting that Bishop Davis was talking about.

As you were sitting at the table with these men, what did you hear, what were you hearing?

And what were some of the takeaways for you?

>> The take away from me is there's frustration, there's fear, there's anger, you know, because for all of these years, and we're talking about the elephant in the room and I'm not saying Democrat or Republican when I refer to 'elephant.'

The elephant in the room is that there are issues that I think, it's an old principle from my city planning, NIMBY, not in my backyard.

And as long as things don't tend to happen in the backyards of people, then you can gloss over it.

It doesn't exist.

It's not a problem.

And so all of a sudden it became a problem when Easter weekend, when there's a shooting at Columbiana Mall, I'm now getting calls, you know, because I've been talking about the same legislation for years.

We've had community meetings, without no justice, no peace meetings, that we've had over the years.

We've talked about the same issues about, you know, needing to strengthen gun laws, strengthen, you know, unlawful carrying of pistols and other things that we can do, but all of the sudden when it happens Easter weekend, and it hits, and Lester Holt's talking about it, and every other news agency, you know, nationally is talking about it, the Chamber of Commerce now wants to talk about it, when we've been trying to talk about it for a while.

And so there was a frustration that it said, hey, you know, people in our communities have been dying for all of these years, but now people are interested, but the bottom line is there was also a... it was kind of a cathartic piece that we understood and respected the fact that they had influence, and they could do something, and that we cared enough to sit down with them, meaning, we meaning the chief of police, the sheriff, the solicitor, you know, and clergy to sit down and listen and have a conversation as opposed to preaching to them and talking at them.

We had a conversation with them about things that could be done and how we could better some of these situations by listening and learning from them.

We often kind of take that role that we know more than everybody else.

But the truth is, if we sit down, we're all, you know, we're all human.

You know, we put our pants on one leg at a time, and there's something that can be learned from those conversations.

And what I saw is these are some brilliant young men, very smart young men who had very different upbringing than I did, and they had different options than I did.

And by the grace of God, I could be in a similar situation, but understanding that and understanding that we are on the same level and we all have something to bring to the table, they're able to offer suggestions and solutions that Bishop had seen and been able to put into place.

We've seen some of the quietest summers that we've seen in a long time but for last night, or a couple nights ago.

We've seen, you know, this initiative bear fruit because we listened and we learned and we're seeing a difference.

So it means interaction, interacting with communities.

Police need to listen, solicitors need to listen, communities need to listen.

And it becomes, again, a we problem and not a you problem.

And we don't wait 'til it happens in someone else's backyard, because the truth is it's happening in all our backyards.

And if it happens there, it's just a matter of time before it happens here.

>> You know, when we have these shootings, we hear a lot of thoughts and prayers and then some time passes and then the next news cycle goes on and we kind of forget about it.

You mentioned that Easter weekend at Columbiana Mall.

Now, a lot of people are talking about this.

How do you maximize it?

Sounds weird to say this, but how do you maximize on that momentum to get more successes that you and the bishop were seeing from that that meeting?

>> I think the maximization comes from bringing everybody to the table, and we got to get past white folks, black folks, hispanic folks, Asian folks, and just look at it.

You know, the Shakespearean piece, Am I not a man?

Do I not laugh when I'm tickled?

Do I not bleed when I'm pricked?

I mean, that's where we need to be.

We're all human beings.

And we have to understand that again, all of our communities matter, and we have to treat all of our communities like they matter.

So we need buy-in from the business community.

We need buy-in from clergy.

We need buy-in from legislators.

You know, I've told my office many a time, and police, you're not going to arrest away this problem.

You know, we're not going to prosecute it away, and we're not going to pray it away, but if we put all of those things together, then all of us have a part.

And if we bring all of those collective pieces together, it's like a three-legged stool or four-legged stool when you bring in legislators as well.

If we all do our part and bring our part together and understand it's for the greater good of these communities, then the decisions that we make, the legislation that we pass, the way that we enforce, and the way that we listen, the way that we love one another, the way that we respect one another gets better, and it reflects itself in the policies that we make.

And so it's a change of policy through all of us really bringing all that we have, bringing it all to the table so that we can use it collectively for the better good of our community.

Thelisha>> Kassy, in 2018 you gave a TEDx talk at the University of South Carolina about reaching across the police community divide, and much like the meeting that the bishop and the solicitor were at, you, in your TEDx talk, you talked about being able to position yourself to hear from and therefore, learn from, and kind of put yourself in the shoes of all people from all of our communities.

What insights can you give?

Because that's that could be a tall order for some people.

Through the lens of the work that you do, what insights can you give to help people do more of that?

>> Thank you, and you know, I think to answer that, I first want to piggyback on something Solicitor Gibson is reflecting on that just makes me think about my own experience with the loss of my husband.

And what I shared at his sentencing was I asked, "What if we had found the man who killed him "before that tragic day?

"Would we have found a man in need, and what if we could have helped him?"

I think the answer for us moving forward is to first see how deeply intertwined all of our stories are.

I mean, the reality is that this individual, people did find him, interacted with him multiple times, whether it be family, community, law enforcement, and I've heard multiple accounts of people saying that they could tell that something wasn't quite right.

And I don't know if we could have ever prevented my husband's death from happening, but I do believe that if we could better come together to see how intertwined our outcomes are, we might stand a better chance, and I think we're seeing that directly through our work focused on mental health.

In Lexington County, where there was a big reflection, Chief Green saw that there was an individual that had 30 arrest reports and he said, "Something's not right."

So he reached out to Lexington County EMS, to mental health partners, to the family, and they were able to find ways to get that individual help.

And so I think your question is, how can we provide guidance to others to engage in this situation?

And I think it first starts with our own hearts and realizing that what happens to one impacts us all.

The stories of one neighborhood are our story.

That story I shared earlier from the woman in one of the highest crime neighborhoods, it's just miles from my house.

No one, none of my neighbors should have to live like that, and we have to see how deeply intertwined we are, and that starts with our hearts.

But then once we've made the decision internally to take that next step to see that we're all part of one world family, that people who may live in north Columbia, Northeast, in different areas of Richland County where I live are my neighbors too, once we've made that decision, we have to be willing to let our guard down.

I think so often the divisiveness that we're seeing is coming from a place of fear.

We are afraid that if we let our guard down, we no longer protect the people that we love, that we're letting them down, but it is precisely the opposite thing we must do if we want to make a difference.

We have to know that being courageous is to lean in, to put that hand out and to deeply, deeply listen to other people's perspective, not listen to answer, but listen to understand.

And that's really where the turning point was for me, was to see that change is so much less about being understood, but in seeking to understand, and that starts with our hearts, and our decisions to make that courageous step.

>> Pastor Davis, as you Pastor your congregation and do work throughout your communities, what are you hearing from family members?

What are their concerns?

What are some of their fears?

Where do they share that they believe the solutions to this problem lie?

>> Frustration is what I'm hearing in not being heard.

We took a thousand people to County Council on Tuesday night to be heard.

We had children.

We had mothers who had lost their relatives, their sons, nephews.

It was amazing to see the level of callousness that they met.

So that obviously is going to create a level of frustration.

And there are sentiments that's sometimes very difficult to control.

Martin Luther King Jr. said that riots are the language of the unheard, is the language of the unheard.

So what you find is that people act out on their emotions and if they're not heard, one way or another, they're going to be heard.

So as a ministry, you know, we have to obviously deal with what I said before, with the soul of the matter, the heart of matter, and try our best to give people the tools, the knowledge, the equipment to deal with their issues from an internal place.

But if externally, they're still being frustrated, it's very easy to forgive an act that is passed.

But it's very difficult to forgive an act that is ongoing.

So when you're living in an ongoing situation, and as Solicitor Gibson was talking, as Kassy talked about essentially love that neighbor, you know, but the scripture said, love your neighbor as yourselves , but the question that followed that is who is my neighbor?

He made a point about not in my backyard, and I think that a lot of times we don't perceive people as ourselves.

We look at them, and we don't really believe that I could be in that very situation .

They're in that situation because of something that they did or whatever it may be.

So we all have a sense of callousness in this country as it relates to people who may not look like us or may not be in our socio-economic situation.

It's very easy to turn a deaf ear to their situation, because we kind of self justify, you know, as to why they're in that situation and we're not.

So from a ministerial standpoint, we have to bring people together to a common ground and get people to understand that were it not for the grace of God, that could be you.

But beyond that, those of us who have the power of influence and change, because you're talking two levels of ministry, it is the victimized often times and the victimizers, and many times the victimizers don't believe that they are victimizers, because a lot of the victimization comes from apathy, it comes from inactivity, and that same story about who is my neighbor, that's where we get the story of the Good Samaritan who took it upon themselves to help someone because they had an identification with the struggle.

So, I think that, you know, I keep saying it's a heart issue, and until we start to really deal with the heart of the matter, the hearts of people, and bring one another to common grounds, I think a lot of this is going to be for naught, because people have agendas, and we're seeing those agendas rise to the surface, and a lot of times because of our own personal agendas that may intertwine with the agendas of the people that we have to affect.

Sometimes we have to just put these agendas down and do what's right.

If that was my child, if that was my relative's child, I'd be a lot more passionate about the issue, but because I feel like they're not my neighbor... Then, you know, I will say this too.

In the meeting that we talked about, you know, with the sheriff, the solicitor and the chief, that meeting was held on May 26.

And you mentioned a minute ago as time passes passes.

So the passage of time was less than two months from the Easter shooting 'til the meeting we had a week or so ago with the county, it took that little time to subside those heightened feelings and the energy of we need to do something .

We went right back to normal in a matter of two months because of the work that was going on in the community by these grassroots leaders.

But because it had the collateral effect or a residual effect in the broader communities that we're not hearing anything, and everything's back to normal.

But it was still a heightened emergency.

The paramedic, the firemen, so to speak, were in the street doing the work managing the fire, but because it's not burning next door to me, there is no fire, and I think that's pretty much how we live.

Thelisha>> Thank you to our online community for continuing tonight's conversation or being a part of tonight's conversation.

We turn now to Gavin Jackson.

You have another comment from Facebook?

Gavin>> Yeah, we're having a conversation about red flag laws and the discussion about that, and some folks are saying that red flag laws are dangerous, and Solicitor Gibson, I want to ask you about these.

You know, these laws would remove firearms from someone who the court believes may be a present danger to others or themselves.

We don't really have one on the books here.

The city of Columbia tried to do that.

Obviously, you can't usurp state laws.

So tell me about that, what you think, if that would work in some of these situations.

>> I think it could be beneficial.

You know, you look at the balancing, you know, when you start to balance those things.

The folks who are... And I'll say this, you know, we talk about the 2nd Amendment all the time.

I'm a believer in the 2nd Amendment, but I think that everything, you know, we talk about the Constitution as a living, breathing document that evolves over time, but I don't know that it contemplated what we're dealing with today.

So you talk about red flag laws.

You know, there needs to be something in place, so that if there's somebody who has a mental health issue, that you know there's a mental health history, that you should be able to go and petition the court and talk to the court and say, "Hey, this is what's going on.

This is the evidence that we have."

And so, for a period of time there needs to be a cooling out period where they should not be able to purchase firearms.

And then it goes back to, again, background checks and just having a cooling-off period when you apply to purchase a gun and actually being able to walk out of the store with one.

I think those are reasonable constraints, the reasonable constraints.

And so we do have things on the books that allow that.

But the key is, again, having people in place who can fully understand how those processes work and understanding it's not a lifetime ban.

It's for a period of time, and so you have medical professionals that can be a part of those conversations.

The probate courts are part of those conversations as well, so that if a person is seen as a danger, then there should be a piece of time when when they should be preempted or at least not allowed to purchase a firearm.

Again, I'm a believer that those things need to be in place.

We can only enforce, the solicitors and prosecutors, the laws that are on the books.

And so again it comes back to again, it needs to be important enough on the agendas of folks who are making those laws to put them in place so that we can protect people.

Gavin>> And Rep. Johnson, just to follow-up on that, talking about laws, I mean, is there an appetite for that?

Is there any way that could even happen?

And you're talking about, we're talking about this being an effect, you know, people in their backyards.

I mean, we even saw what happened in Charleston years ago, and still not much happened in the Statehouse where we even saw a senator killed, assassinated.

Yes, the Confederate flag came down, but that was about it.

So I'm wondering what more has to happen for something to happen when it comes to guns in South Carolina.

>> I mean, you can ask yourself that question, because you just stated it yourself.

Nine people were killed.

Nine people were murdered in a church while they were worshiping our God, one of them was their colleague, and they still did not act.

If all of that can happen and them still not act, I don't see what else could change their mind, you know.

And I talk to them about this all the time, you know, that was your friend.

So you say that was your friend that was murdered in cold blood, doing this job, representing the people that you say you represent, that you love, and you still did not honor him by enacting the Hate Crimes Bill, or by doing something about gun reform or something to honor this man.

You know, they took the flag down.

Thank you.

But, you know, people are still dying every single day because of our inaction, you know, and I think we've got to do something, you know.

We need some sort of a checks and balances that are going on here.

I believe it was last year, in Florence, a young lady, went to the court and asked for a restraining order against a man that she was dating.

She was denied, the guy came back and killed her.

You know, it's things like that.

She was crying out for help.

She was saying, "Hey, listen, something's wrong with this individual.

Can somebody help?"

She was denied it.

She's dead now, she's no longer here with us.

You know, it's things like that that we have to really look at because like I stated earlier, you know, it's not like they're trying to strengthen these gun laws, they're trying to loosen them.

They're trying to go in the opposite direction of what we're seeing and what we need right now.

Thelisha>> So we've talked about laws and legislation and the role of the community.

I want to kind of shift now to turn to the more than 2.2 million homes that are here in South Carolina.

Earlier in the show, we heard from law enforcement in Gavin's report that this really isn't something that we can legislate.

The problem isn't in law enforcement, if you will.

And that makes me think about those households.

So Bishop Davis, you Pastor, once again, you Pastor a very large congregation of households, of families.

What should be taking place inside our homes?

>> Well, first thing is our church is unique, because 50% of our church is male, and a large percentage of that make a fathered home.

So, fathers are in the homes, and I think that in the African-American community, that is a significant problem that we have in terms of when you mentioned homes, in terms of stabilizing the family, that man that is responsible for their child needs to be there to nurture, to father and provide for that child.

And I think that's a significant problem that we have seen since the sixties in our country.

But as it relates to the home at large, whether it be single parenthood or dual parenthood, there has to be a sense of...

I'm searching for the word and five words came to mind.

I'm going to pick one, but I'm going to use the word responsibility.

I think that we have latchkey kids.

We have parents who no longer know how to parent.

They put the children in front of televisions, or they let them sit in rooms in front of phones, and there's so many invaders that come into our homes, because parents, in my opinion, are irresponsible.

We don't know what our children are delving into, who's influencing them, what's getting into their minds and spirits?

We can't, you know, pretend that we exist the way we did 50 years ago or even 30 years ago.

These incidents that are occurring in our communities, and our schools, and our neighborhoods, are direct results of individuals who are influencing our children negatively, and they're doing it intentionally.

I say that because I'm now into film production, and one of the things that struck me is you have to shoot one scene about nine times.

You have to be very deliberate and intentional with every word, every message, every image that you put forward.

So that tells me that there are forces that are around us that are deliberately putting out these images that are very destructive, very negative, and they're shaping the minds of our children.

So in those homes, we have to have responsible parenting again.

We have to have people who understand who, what is shaping our children and what is it leading them to?

And we have to also, once again, be involved in our school systems.

We send the children to the schools.

We expect the principals, the teachers and coaches to do what parents aren't doing themselves.

It does take a village to raise a child.

I'll conclude with this: When I was in Africa, I spent some time there doing mission work and one of the things, we say that, but until you're actually in a village, and you see the interconnectivity, the love, the sense of responsibility that people have for even those who are not in their homes, it made me, honestly, a little ashamed, because even as a pastor, how aware am I of my neighbors situation two doors away?

You know, we say we live in neighborhoods, but now we kind of live in communities, but we really live in neighborhoods or developments, you know, we're not neighborhoods anymore.

We don't really think of ourselves as neighbors.

We're in this subdivision, this development.

It's very interesting that these subdivisions are divided.

The people who live three doors apart are divided, because they're in a subdivision.

So, it starts with the home, it spreads to the village or the community, it goes to the school, and then it spreads to the entire city.

But if we don't feel interconnectivity and love for one another, then we're going to continue to have broken homes, that turn into broken communities.

>> Each of you have mentioned matters of the heart when talking about this topic, and just like scripture says, we have to stand at the door and knock.

We cannot Bogart our way inside these homes where, what you just now said, should take place.

Talk a little bit about solicitor, representative, pastor, community organizer, and community leader.

How do we get that message of what should be saying?

What should be taking place inside the home?

But we have to kind of be invited in; we can't force it in.

If we always said that these matters of the heart is what really matters here, how do we kind of bridge that?

How do we get across that chasm, if you will?

>> From my perspective, it starts with conversation.

It starts with understanding what a solicitor is and what the solicitor's role is.

Our role is not as you might see on some Law and Order or some other show, you know, to get 99% prosecution rate and all that kind of stuff.

That's a bunch of foolishness.

Our role is to do justice, and it's to be ministers of justice all of the time.

So that's what we preach to everybody in our office.

And we have to preach that to communities as well so they understand what we do, what our role is, that we have the ability to prosecute cases to the fullest extent.

We also have the ability to divert cases.

We have treatment courts, whether it's mental health court, whether it's veterans court, or whether it's, I said mental health court, homeless courts.

We have other types of places where if there are folks that we see have issues or challenges that are there, that they can be diverted to, in hopes of strengthening some of those inconsistencies that they may have faced or filling some of those voids treating them and and filling those areas, so that they can be better citizens when they finish doing what they're doing.

But helping communities understand what we do, how we can be of assistance, and how we can help to bridge those gaps in doing our roll in our roll as solicitors, it helps us when we can have conversations.

As Dr. Johnson knows, we've had conversations.

We call them "people, policy, and policing" where we talk about policy.

We have legislators there.

We have community leaders there.

We have police there.

We have our officer, and we talk about issues that matter such as this, so that we can get full perspectives and then try to figure out what the next steps are.

So I think in our role talking to people, as we are human beings, person-to-person, understanding what we do and why we do what we do matters.

And that's one where our office in the role as a solicitor, I mean, that we can help in this, and understanding that we're in this thing together.

We have a duty to protect victims rights, but we also have to protect the state of South Carolina and protect people.

We have to protect people, and we have to foster some accountability when bad things happen, so it's an interesting role.

I could talk all day on this.

Thelisha>> Representative Johnson?

>> It starts with showing up and showing up consistently.

A couple years ago, there was two young boys that were murdered in my community.

I went to the site where they were murdered and saw the blood on the ground and called the sheriff's department and the police department to come clean up the area.

You know, I sat there, I prayed at the scene and talked to the residents around there and, you know, held a meeting right after that.

A young lady was murdered two blocks away from my house.

I went to the scene the next morning along with my young son to bring him here just to let him know that these are the type of things that happen.

We've got to be careful about what's going on.

I was there for that one.

I was involved in a march that was going on in Eastover to remember a young guy that was murdered by an individual down there.

And just a couple of weeks ago, there was a balloon release for the young lady that was murdered.

And then we were at the Greenlawn Cemetery, and I was out there for that.

You know, it starts with showing up.

The people have to know that you care.

And if they don't know that you care, then they don't care.

We can't just show up when election time is around.

We can't just show up when we need something.

We can't just show up when there's cameras around.

We can't just show up for these things.

It's not about showing up at the big meetings when there's 20, 30, 40 people and there's cameras.

It's about showing up to the ones where there's two people.

You know, it's about showing up where there's three people, four people, and just being there and listening and hearing what people have to say, allowing the community to voice their cares and their concerns and things, and we've got to do it.

So, you know, last session, I brought the Lower Richland football team to the Statehouse, and I wanted them to see me, you know, in a position of power to say, "Hey listen, I'm a young black guy, you know, you can be like me, you can do what I do.

You don't have to just play sports or guns or gangs or... You can do what I do.

You can be just like me, or you can surpass what I'm doing.

So I want individuals to know that there's other pathways, but you have to consistently show up and show that you care.

Thelisha>> All right, we are out of time.

We thank each of you for your time this evening.

Thank you for all being here.

Thank you for listening and thank you for watching here on South Carolina ETV.

We started tonight's conversation with a statistic from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, that more Americans died of gun related injuries in 2020 than in any other year on record.

Suicides accounted for more than half of those deaths.

Some of our conversations tonight touched on issues and solutions at the intersection of mental health and gun safety.

If you or someone you know are struggling or in crisis, you can call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at 1-800-273-TALK along with the new 988 Suicide and Crisis Hotline.

For all of us here at South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio, thank you for joining us.

Have a good night.

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