- I got sick, it was a holiday thing.

I got sick.

I pushed myself back in the booth too soon.

'cause you know, people were waiting on files.

And so I got back in the booth, got about two days in, and then got laryngitis, waited a week again, got back in the booth too soon.

And that's when I had a doctor say, here's, here are your choices.

You either need to take a month of vocal rest, or you're probably not gonna be able to do this anymore.

- Wow.

- Like, this is just gonna be a recurring problem.

You're gonna really ruin your voice.

So what, that was a, that was a good wake up call.

- Welcome to Forum, I'm Mina Kim.

Are you planning to make an audiobook part of your Thanksgiving travels?

Julia Whelan has been called the "Adele of audiobooks" by The New Yorker, having narrated more than 700 titles, including her own works "My Oxford Year" and "Thank You For Listening."

- William Morrow and Harper Audio Present.

Thank you for listening.

A novel by Julia Whelan.

This is the author.

- Whelan is with us to talk about what really goes into reading books out loud, bringing scenes and characters to life, and how she's handling the growth of AI generated voices entering an industry where humans don't get paid much as it is.

What's an audiobook you'd recommend?

Listeners, you can tell us by calling (866) 733-6786, emailing forum@KQED.org or posting on our social channels Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads.

Welcome to Forum Julia.

- Hi.

Thank you so much for having me.

- So you were quoted in the AP as saying, I feel like I was born to do it.

What is it about audiobook narrating that makes you feel this way?

- You know, it was an industry that I didn't even know existed to be fair.

But I was, I was a child actor.

I've always loved acting.

I've acted since I was nine or 10.

And then when I went to college, I got a English and creative writing degree.

And that's the other thing that I love is books.

And when this opportunity presented itself to do both of the things I love, at the same time, it was a real fish to water situation.

I couldn't believe that this had just been sitting here this whole time and that it gets to be my career.

- Yeah, it's, it's something that, in preparing for this conversation, I realized requires so much more preparation than I realized.

Can you talk about your process and how, how, how you start preparing for doing a recording?

- Sure.

Yeah.

I do think that people have the assumption, I just get in the booth and, and read the book.

And I wrote some of this process in the "Thank You for Listening" because of the same questions that would come up repeatedly from people who just wanna know how the sausage gets made.

So when I get a book for the first time, I'm usually looking at a not final draft of the manuscript, but approaching of near final draft.

And in my prep read, I'm really keeping an eye on just the voice of the piece.

Like what is the narrative voice?

Are we talking humorous?

Is it melodramatic?

You know, what's the, what's the tone?

And then I'm keeping a list of words that I need to learn how to pronounce.

And sometimes they're author invention and sometimes they're real words.

And then I'm also keeping a character list of any speaking characters with any vocal traits that the author has given them.

So whether that's an accent or a timbre, as well as any biographical details that I think are important.

And then part of the prep process is building out that cast of characters and focusing primarily on the collection of characters that are in conversation with each other the most, so that I can differentiate those characters as much as possible for the ease of the listener.

And then building out the, the fuller cast.

So by the time I actually get in the booth and hit record, I should theoretically have a strong strategy and game plan going in Wow.

I'm sure it varies from book to book, but about how long does that take?

- My ratio is about four hours of prep and recording to one finished hour of audio.

- Hmm.

Well I really enjoyed hearing the sound of your voice and playing those cuts.

Would you say you have a narrator voice?

And if so, how would you describe it?

- One of- When people meet me for the first time, they're very surprised that my natural speaking voice is not my narrator voice.

And for me, I'm like, well, do you take your work home with you?

But I also, I, I feel at this point the narrator voice that maybe I've cultivated feels so natural.

It doesn't feel like something that I'm putting on.

It just feels like a role that I'm slipping into that I maybe signals to the reader like, okay, we're getting down to business now.

You're entering the story and action.

- And there is a certain pacing I noticed.

Is that something that you thought a lot about or did that just sort of emerge naturally as you were reading text?

- That's a really good question because the industry has actually changed in the, I don't even know, 16, 17 years that I've been doing it at this point where we were taught very early on to have a very slow reading cadence so that people could follow you.

And I just think that as listeners particularly have gotten TikTok-ified and podcast-ified and they're used to now listening to people at a conversational extemporaneous clip, I have tried to actually nudge my rhythm a little tighter for, for the listener.

And yet people will still listen at, you know, multiple X speed.

- Right.

- Actually it, it has changed.

- We do have a question along those lines.

Mark writes, do you get offended if people listen to your audio book sped up?

I usually listen to them on 1.5x speed.

- Okay, that's fine.

1.5 is fine.

I used to be very offended by this because I was like, "I am choosing to tell you the story at the pace.

I think the story needs to be told.

It's my art."

But then I had some really helpful people explain that, especially if you have a neurodivergency, especially something like ADHD, if, if the audio bookis not going at the speed of your, you're going to get distracted and you're not going to be able to follow it.

And so I have, I have stepped aside, I've gotten off of that soapbox and I think people should listen at whatever speed they want, but if you click it up too much, you're gonna miss some performance.

And also it distorts the voice so much that it sounds like Minnie Mouse is reading you an audiobook.

So if you're just trying to get through it to like be able to go into book club having read the book, fine.

But if you have the time, I always recommend people do it at a comfortable speed.

- We're talking with Julia Whelan, who's been called the Adele of audiobooks, narrator, actor.

And you our listeners are joining the conversation with your questions and comments at (866) 733-6786.

And on our social channels @KQEDForum, this listener writes, how does your guest prepare her voice for recording?

I've heard for example, that voice actors keep grapes in the studio to avoid dry mouth sounds.

Does she have to avoid or eat certain foods?

- Yes.

So on recording days, I don't do dairy and I'm hydrating all the time.

Like I know for the radio people, you're not gonna see this.

But for the video people, I always have a mason jar of water nearby at all times.

I don't do alcohol on the nights before I'm going to record.

The main thing that's actually the most helpful, the grape technique is one, but I green apples cleans up mouth noise.

I don't know if you experienced this on, on your side of the industry, but that's what has always, in every studio you go into for audio books, there's green apples.

- That's funny.

That's one of the tips I was given.

They didn't say green specifically, but they did say apples were a good way.

Well, - Apples in general are very good for throat health.

Like they're, they're that pulpy lubrication is very helpful, but green particularly something about the acidity, I think just cleans up the errant cracks and mouth noise.

- That's good to know.

So now we're in the studio.

Can you talk about the physical demands of recording for hours on end?

- Such a- Thank you.

It's hard.

I always feel like, I always feel a little bit ridiculous saying that it's a, it takes a physical toll when I'm hardly, you know, in coal mines here.

But I, it does, first of all, sitting for this long, not moving is part of the job.

So all of the performance is just coming through my face.

I can't move lest my wrist cracks, lest my clothing makes noise.

So I am pretty stationary and I've been in physical therapy for my neck two times.

I've been in physical therapy for my lower back multiple times.

It's just, you know, we all deal with this, anybody with a desk job.

Right?

But, and then there's the strain on the voice, which the way I have structured my career, certainly over the last few years has just been to only schedule a certain number of finished hours a day.

And I used to do 70 books a year and I can't do that anymore.

Like it, it just, you can hear it even in my performance, if you go back and listen to, you know, "Gone Girl," my voice has changed a lot.

There's just so many miles now on this voice.

- Yeah.

Miles is a good way to put it.

And I understand at one point you actually had a doctor tell you, you do need to stop, slow down, not even use your voice for almost a month.

What was happening there?

- Yeah, so I, this was, I think it was also in the year that I was writing "My Oxford Year."

And so on top of the 70 books I was narrating, I was recording, I was writing a book, and I just, I got sick, it was a holiday thing.

I got sick, I pushed myself back in the booth too soon.

'cause you know, people were waiting on files.

And so I got back in the booth, got about two days in and then got laryngitis, waited a week again, got back in the booth too soon.

And that's when I had a doctor say, here's, here are your choices.

You either need to take a month of vocal rest or you're probably not gonna be able to do this anymore.

- Wow.

- Like, this is just gonna be a recurring problem.

You're gonna really ruin your voice.

So what, that was a, that was a good wake up call.

- Yeah.

You mentioned that you were a child actor and also why audiobooks really appealed to you.

But I do wonder why that isn't an industry you pursued further.

- I actually did, when I first graduated from college, I came back into the industry and was doing on camera, but it had changed a lot.

I was a very particular type of actress in terms of what I, what I wanted to be and who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do.

And more importantly, not do.

And the industry, especially at that time, especially when you're a woman in your twenties wants a very specific thing from you.

And I was just hitting my head against a wall more often than not.

And, you know, being told, I think it's hard when you're not exactly what people have in mind.

So I was constantly being told, look, you either need to lose 15 pounds and be a leading lady, or you need to gain 30 pounds and be the best friend, but you can't be in this liminal space.

And I was like, why not?

I just wanna act, I just wanna be Gary Oldman, like, let me be Gary Oldman.

And that's, you know, that was just not a possibility at that time in the industry.

I think it's changed a little bit now, but it was certainly not a thing I was willing to put up with anymore and organize my life around when I had these other creative outlets that I didn't have to fight so hard.

Yeah.

Just didn't make any sense to me.

- Yeah.

So you were able to do something you love without sort of the toxic side, especially for women that can exist.

- Yes.

And especially on camera, you know, you're only gonna get to play a certain thing.

And the great thing about audio books is I get to play everybody and there's something so creatively satisfying about that, that on camera can't even compete with.

Now, it's nice to just be responsible for one character and I miss the dynamics of being on a set and actually acting with other people.

And I'll do it occasionally when someone writes something for me or they come to me specifically.

But yeah, the organizing my life around it and, and making that a goal when it wasn't even, I wasn't even sure if it's what I actually wanted anymore, just caused me to take a step back and reevaluate.

- Yeah.

Stage actors often say they feed off the energy of the audience, but you are in a booth totally by yourself.

Does that, do you have to do something to generate that kind of energy?

Or do you not really need that?

- I, I don't actually, it's interesting that you say that.

I guess I don't, because I'm used to it being such an isolated job and I, I think I've had, I have such a developed ear for what is working from my years of on camera and working with other actors that it's like I almost imagine myself in an ensemble when I'm doing an audiobook so that I feel like I'm, I have a full cast and I have a director and it's all just me in my head.

So this is actually probably something I should talk to a therapist about, but, but, but it's a good point.

I mean, - Thanks Julia.

We're talking about what it really takes to narrate an audiobook with one of the most sought after audiobook narrators, Julia Whelan.

More with her and with you after the break.

Listeners, this is Forum, I'm Mina Kim, Welcome back to Forum.

I'm Mina Kim.

We're talking this hour with Julia Whelan, narrator, actor, writer.

We're talking about audiobooks and what we love about listening to audiobooks and what really goes into narrating our favorite titles.

Julia Whelan has narrated more than 700 audiobooks, including Ottessa Moshfegh's "My Year of Rest and Relaxation" and others you would probably know and listeners you are sharing what you love about audiobooks, what you wanna know about what it takes to record an audiobook.

And I'm wondering also if a narrator can make or break your listening experience.

If you're a Julia Whelan fan, let us know why.

The email address forum@kqed.org.

Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads @kqedforum.

Call us at (866) 733-6786 Catherine writes, number one, Julia Whelan fan here.

I absolutely love Julia Whelan.

When I'm looking for a new audiobook, I just search for Julia Whelan as narrator because she is so good.

If a book is not narrated by her, I hesitate to even listen.

Julia, thank you so much for all you give to every audiobook.

My recommendation beyond Julia's "Thank You For Listening" is "The Giver of Stars" by Jojo Moyes.

It highlights Julia's incredible talent with many accents and characters.

Wow.

- Oh my gosh.

Okay, I think I'm gonna leave now.

I'll just let her take over this.

That's fine.

- You know, one of the first projects that really changed your life and I think put you on the map I understand, is Gillian Flynn's "Gone Girl."

- Yeah.

- Did you know you had a hit on your hands when you were reading that story?

- Yep, that's the one book I've ever called correctly.

- Wow.

Yeah, - I mean, it was just undeniable.

Like I was 10 pages in and I actually sent it.

I wasn't supposed to do this.

Oops.

Secret's out now.

I sent it to a producer, a friend of mine, and I said, you need to get this book, I, I just know it's gonna be amazing.

And it was already long gone, long gone, but it, you know, it was so obvious that it was just something new and something fresh and it was so good.

And that was before I even got to the twist.

- Yeah.

You've also called this almost like your, one of your biggest frustrations or even a book that you almost see as your own villain origin story.

Explain why.

Oh yes.

- I only, only in the financial aspect, so, - Right.

- No, I love this book and I love Gillian and this is, if I could just go back and record that book, like for the rest of my life, I would find new shades in it and I would be, so, it'd be so much fun.

But I always use this as an example when I talk about my own activism in the industry and what it is that I'm fighting for and why I started my own audio publishing company.

And that's because, you know, audiobooks are a multi-billion dollar industry now.

They've had double digit growth year over year for the last decade to the write-ins point.

You know, a lot of people choose their audiobooks based on the narrator, and yet narrators don't get royalties.

So in an industry that kind of sits at the intersection of acting, in which case we get residuals for projects that we've worked on and publishing that is a royalties based business we don't benefit from either.

And this is not only wrong, but also doesn't create a healthy ecosystem for people to be in this career.

Creates exactly what we talked about earlier where I'm doing 70 books a year and burning myself out.

- So much pressure to do as much volume as possible to Right the detriment of your voice and health sounds - Exactly.

Because there's no backend and it doesn't really end that way.

There's no, you know, for, for me, the, the example I use "Gone Girl" because it's a book that people immediately know and because it's been out for 13 years at this point, so when I say I made, you know, $2,500 recording Gone Girl 13 years ago, and that's been it that strikes this message home for people.

Not to mention the Taylor Jenkins Reid's books, Emily Henry's books, Kristin Hannah's books, you know, there's, every narrator has that body of work that has gone, that continues to live and people continue to make money off of it.

The authors and the publishers and certainly the distributors certainly Audible and it and not the narrator.

And that, that's, that was my radicalizing moment and that's why I say it was my villain origin story of just really need this industry needs to change if it's going to survive, what is coming for it and if people are going to survive in it.

- Can you describe for me, or or characterize just how much the audiobook industry has grown and in part with the help of incredible narrators?

- Right, thank you.

Yeah, I, I think that I mean, so much of this has to do with the technological jump forward that Audible really ushered in of you can have an audiobook in your pocket now, you know, it's not a CD, it's not something that you have to have a separate physical product.

It's on, it's accessible on your phone.

And at the same time, the loyal audiobook listeners have really built the industry and they're the people who listen to tens if not hundreds of hours a month.

And then even beyond that, the casual listener, we now have statistics showing that at least 50% of the population has at least listened to an audiobook.

So it is a part of media.

Now I received, this isn't a plug or anything, but just for context, I received an award this year for best fiction narrator from the Alliance of Women in Media Foundation, a Gracie.

And in their 50 year history of the awards, they had never had audiobook categories.

- Wow.

- And they did for the first time this year because it is a larger part of media.

- I have seen some incredible stats like the audiobook industry reaching 2.2 billion in 2024, and that was a 13% jump just from the previous year.

And also with new players like Spotify, Apple and Amazon in the space.

Yeah.

It's just been really exponential.

Let me go to some calls.

Let me go to Vincent in San Pablo.

Hi Vincent, you're on.

Join us.

- Yeah, good morning.

I think I've got the most obvious question in regards to AI.

I - Mean, yeah, - It's gotta be the most obvious question and my fear briefly is that AI is going to take over most of these industries and other industries and, and I, I'm very much against that and hopefully there are laws put in place that protect jobs like yours.

But as you know, someone will be able to put in your style in fact, and, and maybe even increase your styles, you know, make it even sound more like you.

That's even possible.

And so I wanted to, to hear what her thoughts were on that.

- Yeah, absolutely.

And you know, just to that point, Vincent, Melania Trump's memoir was narrated entirely by an AI replica of her own voice as well.

So talk about how you are thinking about AI narrators potentially replacing performers like yourself, artists.

Sure.

- So it is a, it is obviously a very complicated and very fraught topic and there's a lot of fear around it.

I can only say that I think it's worth acknowledging that it is, it has changed the industry already.

A lot of the younger narrators who were just trying to get their foothold, that that initial level of work, whether it's from indie authors or small pubs, a lot of that has disappeared now.

And so I think it's gonna be harder to break into the industry.

And it has to be said that a lot of these language models have been built on stolen labor.

So even if they're not cloning your voice, they have been built on throwing all of these, this mass tranche of audiobooks into a blender and just blending 'em up and teaching the machines how to act, on our backs basically.

That said, there's a whole part of this industry where audio books don't get made because it's not financially viable to make them.

They're smaller books, they have a smaller audience.

So having quality synthetic voice for accessibility reasons just so people can access these books could be valuable.

And they deserve to have good ethical AI narrating those books and not just an Alexa voice.

What I'm trying to preserve and why I started a company, Audiobrary that is devoted entirely to human storytelling and we make that commitment and that's all it will ever be, is to differentiate from the AI slop that is going to be flooding the market.

And why I am betting the farm on this idea is because I think there are, to the caller's point, people who are still gonna care, who still wanna support human content creators.

So if we know you may, it may get to the point where you can't tell the difference, but if you know the difference that these, that this thing was created by humans, where are you gonna put your money?

How are you gonna support them?

- John writes, I love the way Julia refers to her art, her consideration of neurodivergent folks and her desire to speak at a cadence that is inclusive.

I also appreciate that she's aware of not making noise to distract from her readings.

She has a great sound to her voice and I appreciate the effort she makes through what must be a great microphone.

One of the reasons I just read Don is because I think he's illuminating also so many of the things that AI will not be able to do.

Yes.

Or would not do exactly right in terms of considerations.

The other thing too is that- Here's the, here's the thing.

- Yeah, go Julia, - Oh sorry, go ahead.

No, I talk about this.

So I do, I go, I go into libraries and I do presentations on this and I talk about the difference.

And one of the analogies that I use is actually candles.

So when electricity happened, we could have gotten rid of candles entirely, but there's still something so elemental about candles that we are drawn to them.

So we buy them as gifts, we fill our homes with them sometimes unnecessarily.

I just bought two candles I certainly don't need.

And I, and I think about that a lot because something about flame is elemental to humans and something about human voices telling stories is as old as that.

And so I feel that there's still a future for it because it is such a fundamental part of being human, - Just our oral traditions, things like this.

Yeah.

Yes.

I think there are so many examples that tell us that.

I'm also remembering interviewing a journalist who covers the entertainment industry and talking about synthetic actors essentially.

Right.

And they're getting pretty good and maybe these AI voices will get very, very good, but one of the things that he said that he noticed and he wonders if it will ever get there, is that the synthetic actor is unable to really show intent.

Like there is this human quality that may not be captured or capable of being captured.

And I think you're getting at what that is for voice too.

- Yeah.

When I read a book ahead of time before I record it, I know where it's going.

I know how to play red herrings, for instance.

I know how I wanna set something up.

That's what it's missing right now is it doesn't know what it's saying.

And I am not enough of a technologist to be able to say that that's never gonna happen.

My guess is it probably will happen, but it's not programmed for risk or surprise.

So all of that interesting stuff that comes out in performance when you don't expect to say something and it ends up being the best part of a scene, it it doesn't, it's not gonna do that.

And so that's why part of this push that I've, this mission that I've sort of been on is to bring out the human.

This is an interesting industry where I hide behind my mic.

Most people don't know what I look like.

Most people don't even look at which narrator is narrating their book.

They just know whether they like it or not.

So it's a very invisible and therefore very vulnerable career to have.

- Hmm.

- So in part of what I'm trying to do to lift up other narrators and like say there are people behind this and this is, this is what we bring to, to the work and it's just a different product.

It's an entirely different product that can't even be really compared.

- Can I ask you to read one of the excerpts you brought?

Sure.

And I think Catherine will be glad to hear it's actually from "Giver of Stars" by Jojo Moyes.

- Perfect absolutely.

So for people who aren't familiar,"Giver of Stars" is Jojo Moyes' novel that's actually set in America Set during the Depression.

And it's about a real program that existed, which was the Pack Horse Librarians who were charged with going into their rural communities in Appalachia on horseback to bring books to them.

So they come to this guy's house and he's got a rifle on his shoulder.

I don't wanna buy nothing.

Well that suits me fine because we ain't selling nothing.

- I'll take just five minutes of your time.

So I'm not sure if you've heard from town, but we got a book library going.

It's for those who like stories or to help your children get educated a little.

Especially if they don't go to the mountain school.

And I came by because I wondered if you'd like to try some books for yous.

I told you they don't read.

Yes you did.

So I brought some easy ones just to get 'em going.

These ones here got pictures and all the letters so they can learn by themselves.

Don't even have to go to school to do it.

They can do it right here in your - Home.

She handed him one of the picture books, he lowered his gun and took the book gingerly as if she were handing him something explosive and flicked through the pages.

- I need the girls to help with the pickin' and cannin'.

Oh sure you do.

Busy time of year.

I don't want 'em distracted.

I understand.

Can't have nothing slowing the cannin'.

I have to say.

It looks like the corn is going to be fine this year.

Not like last year.

Huh?

Jim Horner pushed the book toward her.

They want money for those things.

Well no, see that's the beauty of it, Jim.

No money, no signing up, no nothing.

Library just exists so people can try a bit of reading.

Jim Horner stared at the cover of the book.

I'll tell you what, how about I leave these here just for the week.

You don't have to read 'em, but you can take a look if you like.

We'll come by - Next Monday and pick 'em up again.

If you like 'em, you get the kids to tell me and I'll bring you some more.

You don't like 'em, just leave 'em on a crate by the fence post there and we'll say no more.

How's that sound?

I don't think so.

We'll tell you the truth.

You do me a favor would mean I don't have to carry the darn things all the way back down the mountain.

Boy, our bags are heavy today.

Good to see you, Jim.

- As they reached the gate, Jim Horner's voice lifted and hardened.

I don't want nobody else coming up here bothering us.

I don't wanna be bothered and I don't want my children bothered.

They got enough to deal with.

Marjorie didn't even turn around.

She lifted a hand.

I hear you Jim.

And we don't need no charity.

I don't want anyone from town just coming by.

I don't know why you even came here.

Headed to all the houses between here and Berea, but I hear you.

- We just got a sense of why Julia Whelan is called the Adele of audiobooks and is so sought after by authors, reading from Jojo Moyes's "Giver of Stars."

What kind of work did it take to perfect the accent, Julia?

- I mean, it's so baked into the cake.

She, I don't know what she did.

She came and stayed in Appalachia and just like stud- So it's built, all the dialectical differences is built just right into that text.

But yes, I of course I do the deep dive, I do the work and - Yeah.

Yeah.

How do you collaborate with authors if you do in fact before you do the reading and do they hear you do the voices and so on?

- Not usually the voices.

There are some authors that I have longstanding relationships with.

So it's as simple as like I'll text Emily Henry and say, what are we thinking for these characters?

Like who is in your head?

Is this like a young Harrison Ford and a, you know?

And she'll confirm or deny.

And then there're some authors where, again, in trying to figure out the best way to adapt, audiobooks are essentially the first and truest and closest adaptation of your work you will ever get.

So for instance, in a book like "The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue," I partnered very closely with Victoria to say, what's the best way that we can show the listener, give them that sense of 300 years passing for this immortal being.

But how do we take a girl who doesn't actually physically age, but we need to feel like she's lived 300 years in her voice.

So what's the best way to do that using her accent and how it may be fades over time as she becomes more international.

So there was strategy, there's some, it depends on the book.

Sometimes with these fantasy series, I've gotta really work with the author on creating these different accents for these different races that they've created.

- Right.

Wow.

Nicole writes, I got a crush on a male character in the first book I listened to that was narrated by Julia.

That's, - That's not unusual.

I'm gonna be honest.

I get that message a lot.

That's, - That's so great.

Nicole goes on to say, then I was hooked and just as another listener mentioned, when I want to find a good book to listen to, I look for one narrated by Julia.

I love the books that she chooses to narrate and wonder, how does she decide which to narrate?

Oh, - Well I think I get more credit for that than I deserve because a lot of it is just the quality of the books that are brought to me.

So the kind of unsung heroes of the audiobook industry are the producers who are in, in this functional capacity casting directors.

And they have to know not only their authors, but also their stable of talent.

And they are the first people who read a book and go, I hear it in Julia's voice, for instance.

So they're the ones who bring things to me.

And I love the relationships that I have with producers who know my taste, they know my skillset and they really set me up for success.

But I also, my... back when I was doing 70 books a year, no there wasn't much.

There was just the actor part of me.

It was like, you can't say no.

You have to say yes if work is there, you have to say yes.

But then I got to the point where I realized that my metric would just be, if I read the flap copy in a bookstore, would I pay $27 for a hard copy because I wanna read it.

And that has been the mechanism I've used to select the books from that point forward.

- Yeah.

This's just something, you know when you read - Yeah, there's just a book nerd.

- Yeah, - I just, you know.

- Yeah.

We're talking with Julia Whelan, narrator, actor, co-founder of an audio book publishing and distribution company called Audiobrary.

And you also may know her for her four books including "Thank You for Listening," "Casanova, LLC" and "My Oxford Year," now a Netflix original film.

Listeners, what do you love about audiobooks?

What do you wanna know about what it takes to record one?

Can a narrator make or break your listening experience?

What's your favorite Julia Whelan book or performance?

And if you have an audiobook recommendation, we'll take those too.

More after the break.

This is Forum, I'm Mina Kim.

You are listening to Forum.

I'm Mina Kim.

We're talking about audiobooks, what really goes into narrating our favorite titles, what we love about listening to stories, with AI and the rise of synthetic voices affecting the craft and the industry as well with Julia Whelan, narrator, actor and co-founder of Audiobrary.

And you, our listeners are joining the conversation.

And let me go to some calls, Heidi in San Francisco.

Thanks for waiting.

You're on Heidi.

- Hi.

I just wanted to say I am so grateful for this conversation because I've always, I was always curious about how audiobooks were done and I wanna say that I have a learning disability.

I'm completely dyslexic and having audiobooks has saved my life and helped my imagination and, and I just, I, I love them.

I live for them.

And thank you.

- Lovely call Heidi.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And let me go next to Christina in Corte Madera.

Hi Christina, you're on.

- Hi, I'm calling.

I'm actually a first time caller and I was very inspired to call because Julia is a reason that I listened to my very first audiobook.

I am a huge reader and have been for years.

And I started a book called "The Women" and kind of couldn't get through it.

And I had a friend say, you need to listen to the audiobook.

The woman that narrates this audiobook is fantastic.

And I listened to my very first 14 hours of an audiobook and it was fabulous and you opened a door for me.

So thank you.

- Thank you so much.

"The Women" is really trial by fire, if that's your first audiobook.

Woo.

- Thanks Christina.

Let me go to Victoria in Sonoma next.

Hi Victoria, thanks so much for calling, you're on.

- Hi.

I'm excited.

I was excited to hear some ladies speaking about audiobooks and then realized it was Julia Whelan.

I, I wanted to say that I, I got a horrible injury 25 years ago that stopped me pretty much from reading and I was a published writer before then.

And so it was agony.

The books are the reason that I'm sane and I mean every week I listen to a book and she is on my star list.

Julia, you're a really kick butt reader and it, it's really meant everything to me 'cause I wouldn't have my sanity otherwise.

So I just thank you for that.

So thank you.

And the funny thing is, it's like I miss reading my text with my eyes, but the cool thing is it's like it brings theater into your home when it's, when it's a good reader, you know?

So thank you.

- Yeah, thank you.

Thank you so much.

Oh, okay.

- Yeah, sorry.

You're making us tear up.

- Yeah, that's really, to go back to the question of why we do this, it's obviously not for the money, as I've said, it's for that, like there is nothing, to me that is more important than human connection through storytelling.

I literally don't know why else any of this exists.

And whether it's the written word that you are reading or whether it is that elemental human voice connection, that is what it's for.

And it gives people access to worlds beyond themselves.

And thank you.

I don't, I'm not one to often stand there and say like, this is the most important job in the world.

It's obviously not, but it's, it, it matters.

It matters.

- Jim writes, I have read to my kids for years and I always do voices, but sometimes I give a voice to a passing character early in the book that is encountered much later in the book.

And I realize I don't remember the accent I gave.

How do you deal with this?

- Good question.

So yes, I, first of all this, that chart I was talking about earlier, when I make a list of characters, I always have that to refer back to.

But when I am recording I will snip a little sample of a character and then set it aside so that when they do reappear 150 pages later, I can click, you know, click on it and hear what I did because I, too, don't remember.

Now multiply that by when a new book and a series comes in and it's been a year since you were last in that world.

So there's some ongoing series where I have character clips of maybe 250 different characters.

- What advice would you give to someone who's thinking about becoming an audiobook narrator entering the industry now with the challenges that we talked about?

- Yeah, I, I never have a good answer for this because it was such a different industry when I started.

All of us who had this career years ago, we just fell backwards into it.

You know, we were basically pulled off the street by someone who thought we might be good at this and we gave it a shot.

Now I recommend, there's a wonderful website called Narrators Roadmap that was put together by Karen Commins, who is an audiobook narrator.

And so I direct people there because I think they probably keep everything the most up to date.

And there's everything from very basic rudimentary information to, okay, you have your studio set up, but how are you gonna start networking?

And, and so there's, I, I recommend that - And you've become such a public figure in it.

I imagine that played a role in your decision to start Audiobrary.

But can you just describe it a little bit more for us with regard to how you do it differently, how you model how narrators should be treated and paid?

- Sure.

So we're, we're very small, we're very young.

We haven't taken any investment because I really don't want, I wanna give it a shot the way I want to do it.

I as an, this is also coming as an author, my author side as well.

So seeing what is kind of broken in publishing as far as I'm concerned, and it's not dissimilar to the way the other arts work, which is that the artists themselves, the people who build the ladder, stay at the bottom rung of it.

So we have a situation where retailers are taking the majority of the sale and then it's going to the publisher who's taking a majority from that fraction.

And then it's moving on to the author and then nothing is going to the narrator.

So when I was conceived of this and after being asked, I was asking publishers for years to do the right thing to please start giving narrators royalties and being told no one does that, that's not the way it works.

And I kind of said, well then what I'm hearing is that I need to start a publisher that does it.

So you can't say no one does it anymore.

And so I did.

So we give narrators royalties and we are also, while I was building that company, we also decided to create a direct to consumer retail channel because the amount that, like I said, gets dwindled away going through other retailers, especially the most prominent one, really leaves nothing for authors either.

So it is also, we also have a direct to consumer distribution arm and it's basically starting two companies at once, which was probably not the smartest thing to do, but I was, it was coming from a place of righteous rage.

I'm not terribly entrepreneurial on myself left to my own devices.

I would rather just be writing and acting.

But the, I didn't know how to make this industry sustainable with everything that was gonna be happening to it if I didn't try to do, do something different.

- Oh, this listener writes Jack, one audiobook that worked especially well for me was "Broken Horses" by Brandi Carlisle.

It's her life story spoken by her.

Yeah.

Which makes it very personal and compelling.

It was like sitting on the porch with her as she delved into a very interesting past.

Another listener on Bluesky writes, why do authors read their own books?

Usually they are nowhere near as good as a voice actor such as your guest.

I don't know why authors think they automatically also have the skills it takes to make a great audiobook.

So I imagine it's a little bit of a hit or miss, but I was curious if, you know, how much of an incentive maybe a publisher has to have the author read the book as opposed to go and try to pursue an audiobook narrator.

Does that cut into your business or is that a competitive, is it becoming competitive for people in your field to have other people or the author- - You know, it's actually very, I love that those two comments came in together because they are perfectly polar opposites.

So the fact that Brandi Carlisle recorded her own book is part of what was so charming and immersive about it.

Usually we have a difference between memoir and fiction.

- Hmm.

- Right.

So usually an author of fiction of a novel is not narrating their own audiobook.

Sometimes it happens and sometimes they're very good at it.

But yeah, I, I always say that, you know, I've done a couple of memoirs where I have narrated for an author and there always seems to be some level of disappointment on a listener's part that it's not the author themselves.

But at the same time I've had authors say, I don't wanna live through the recording my, like, I've already processed the trauma, I've written the book, I don't wanna go back into the book.

So yes, I think publishers, especially for memoir probably do the calculus that it will be more popular for listeners if the author is recording it.

But it, it very much depends on the book.

- Let me go - The Melania Trump one, I'm sorry, but I have to cut in.

'cause the Melania Trump one is absolutely hilarious because that could have gone to a real narrator like that was money taken out of the mouths of a real narrator for an AI version of her voice.

And I would love to know more about how that happened, but that's above my pay grade.

- That's funny because yes, it was a totally AI generated voice as we said.

Let me go to call Tere in San Francisco there.

Thanks for waiting.

You're on.

- Hi, it's Therese.

- Oh, Therese, sorry.

- Oh, I wanted, yeah, no problem.

I want to thank you, Julia for everything that you're putting into preserving storytelling.

I happen to be listening to The Four Winds right now by Kristen Hannah and I - Oh, such a good book.

I just turned the radio on at the top of the hour.

So it was just a coincidence and it's, it's so interesting to hear about all these other things that you're doing.

I grew up in a family where we read out loud to each other, well beyond early childhood and then entered adulthood and saw that it wasn't really a thing out there.

So got into audiobooks super early when I was carrying around cassette tapes and taking walks and listening way back when.

But my question for you is, what was your childhood like?

Did you grow up being read to and reading to other people?

Or did you develop that later in life?

- Oh, that's a really good question.

Thank you for asking it.

I, yeah, I came from, I was a very precocious reader.

I think I was reading by four or five and we actually, we read a lot.

We read out loud.

I was an only child.

So I think that's actually part of it is that the, in the entertaining of myself, I, I remember a time when I would actually three or four years old before I could write, I would dictate stories to my babysitter and then I would act them out.

And so yes, I was a, I was a always a huge reader.

We read them aloud.

What's actually funny is my father, I would get too kind of wound up when he would read stories to me like children's books 'cause I'd wanna know what happened and where did they go and well what if, this doesn't make sense.

And so he started just reading news articles to me, like he would read The New Yorker to me or Harper's to me to try to just get me to go to sleep.

And years later I started working and was head of production at a company called Autumn, which is now part of the New York Times audio structure.

But we put long form journalism on audio and I thought this is so full circle.

Here I am reading the New Yorker and Harper's and The Atlantic.

All the stuff my dad would read to me as I was going to sleep.

- Oh wow.

Well, Camille writes, since becoming a parent, I've started consuming more audiobooks.

It's been the linchpin in maintaining my leisure readership.

I've also learned how lovely it is to read a book out loud as a parent.

Now my kids are older and mostly reading to themselves and I find myself really missing this.

But my sister and I have a practice of sending each other frequent voice messages.

Sometimes I read poetry to her.

It makes us both so happy.

Let me remind listeners, we are talking with Julia Whelan and you're listening to Forum.

I'm Mina Kim.

Let me go to caller Jeff in San Mateo.

Hi Jeff.

Join us.

You're on.

- Hey, good morning you guys.

I'm an avid reader but I'm also crazy busy with all kinds of different things.

I find myself liking the idea of audiobooks, but I can never, what's the word that I want in read in listening to them, I find that I have to frequently repeat listening to them 'cause I can't comprehend them fully.

Does that make sense?

- Sure.

- Yeah, so what are your thoughts on that?

How do you overcome that?

- Thanks.

A very good question.

A very good question.

So I always tell people that it is a different, you have to acclimate to it in the same way that you, when you get to know a, like you start a new TV show in that pilot episode or maybe even the first three episodes, you're still trying to getting the lay of the land of like, what's the, what's the vibe here?

Audiobooks are very much that way.

So you have to get into the narrator's voice, then learn how to translate that into story.

I recommend starting with books that are full cast.

So I recommend like Daisy Jones and the Six for instance, which is structured as an oral history.

So it actually kind of sounds like a podcast.

And I think that that helps people just get into the habit of following a story through listening.

That would be my suggestion.

- There has been some suggestion that you don't get as much from hearing a book as you do from reading it.

Maybe you know, things firing in your brain, for example, as you're listening to a book.

What have you found on that front?

- So there is actually a study that was done.

We have data that supports that it activates the exact same part of the brain and that comprehension is actually equal - To have it heard.

- Yeah, right, I would only say that I think it, the, the difference is you can multitask with audio, right?

So that's the difference.

So if you're, you know, cooking and also doing laundry and you're listening to a book, I think things are going to slip past your notice.

Yes.

In the same way that if your kids are talking to you and you're like, wait, what did you say?

So that's my, would be my assessment.

- Caroline has an audiobook rec, Caroline writes, Hillary Huber's performance of Elena Ferrante's "The Days of Abandonment" is phenomenal.

- Yes!

- The tone, the pacing, the annoying voices of the children.

The Italian, she killed it.

- Yes, Hillary, well, Hillary's an icon.

Hillary is amazing.

And those books are genius.

- You've written books, so if there was someone that you would, is there someone that you would ever have read your, one of your fiction books?

- You know, when I, when "My Oxford Year" first came out, I actually didn't want to record it.

I wanted Katie Kellgren to record it.

Katie unfortunately passed away before the book came out.

She was really, she was really the best of us.

She's just, she's so good, her work lives on, but I was fully prepared to give that over to Katie.

So you know that that's my answer.

I think it depends on what I would write in the future and if it's something that's outside of my lived experience, if it's, if I feel the need for another voice.

My third book "Casanova, LLC" I actually did as duet.

So there's multiple voices on it and it was kind of written with those voices in mind.

So that was fun and I'd like to do that again.

- Well, Julia writes, I remember Ms.

Whelan from when she was on "Once And Again" and have always been a fan of her work.

I was thrilled when I discovered that she's an audiobook narrator.

I belong to a small and wonderful blogging community and Ms.

Whelan's work is so highly regarded so many times I'll read a review that comments "Julia Whelan is the narrator, so that will make it even better."

- That is very sweet, thank you.

- Let me see if I could squeeze Joseph in from Walnut Creek, who I think has a sort of a quick technical question.

Hi Joseph, you're on.

- Hey there.

So I'm an audio engineer and I'm just curious about some of the technical details.

Like what type of mic do you record on?

Are you engineering, your recording sessions yourself, do you record into Pro Tools?

- Yeah.

- And then if you can't move in the studio, do you have a printed out manuscript like in big font sitting on a music stand and how do you deal with like messing up a take if you have to go back and re-edit or like, you know.

- Love this, love this love.

- Yeah, maybe you're thinking of giving it a drag.

- Okay.

All right.

So I am recording.

I'm self engineering myself for the most part unless I'm in another studio.

But I record in a home studio.

I self engineer using Pro Tools.

It's a punch and record methods, so a punch and roll method.

So when I mess up, I go back to the next, the past clear space on the waveform.

I have a pre-roll set up of about two seconds.

So I hear myself in my cans before it starts recording again and I pick up where I left off.

I actually record on a mic that is a U 87 clone that was developed specifically by an audiobook engineer that I know who really tailored it for audio performance.

So it's very on mic.

If I go off even slightly it, it's a problem, but it can handle volume spikes, which is very much appreciated.

So I also read off of an iPad, that's what's in the booth.

So it's silent page turning.

- A couple more recommendations.

Joel writes "The Grapes of Wrath" read by Dylan Baker.

Another listener writes "Americana," The reader Adjoa Andoh was so remarkable.

She did a Nigerian accent and gave the immigrant community a slightly changed accent.

I was so impressed.

Marie writes, I speak for the elderly - people who may be home bound, may not even know what a podcast is and may have weakening vision.

We are a continuing market for audiobooks, and I, as part of that market, am so appreciative that they exist and that I can access them online.

Thank you for helping make my life easier.

I think even during COVID, right, the prediction was that without so many people commuting, audiobooks might go by the wayside, but it sounds like this industry has really found something incurring.

- That was my thought.

I thought March of 2020, I was like, well it's been a nice run, but it's over now.

And then the opposite happened.

People wanted to get away from screens, I think is what, now that I look back on it, I feel like that was probably what drove people to audiobooks was to have entertainment that wasn't a screen.

We were living so much of our lives in front of screens.

So being able to puzzle or knit or cook while having an audiobook brought a whole batch of new listeners into the medium.

- Well, Julia Whelan thank you so much for giving us a sense of why people are so moved by audiobooks.

It's been wonderful to talk with you.

- Oh, thank you so much.

This was lovely.

Thank you.

- And thank you listeners as always.

And Francesca Fenzi, I'm Mina Kim.