♪ ♪ Hello and welcome to "Carolina Classrooms."

I'm Laura Ybarra.

(vinyl record scratching) 2023 marks the 50th anniversary of hip hop, a celebration of music, dance, art and culture.

> Hip hop isn't just a music, it's a culture.

And when we talk about a culture, it's not just the music you listen to.

Hip hop is based on four principles.

You have the emceeing, which is the poetry and the rapping.

You have deejaying, which is, you know, playing two records together or rocking a party.

On the music aspect, you have B-Boy, which is the dance element that comes out of that.

I mean, you have graffiti, you have art culture that comes out of that.

I think that is somebody like me that feels like I'm, I love art, I love history, I love culture.

That was something that every element of hip hop just grabbed me at a young age.

It was young.

It was vibrant.

It was bipoc people, people that look like me that told me this.

And this is the most important thing to me about hip hop.

It said that my voice mattered.

When you're able to step on a stage and perform, when you're able to be sensitive enough to express something that you've created, because when we create, we create in a vacuum writing alone in the house somewhere.

And to be able to put it out there for people to appreciate it, those are the things that you take with you, that confidence of being on stage and the confidence that I've learned being involved in the hip hop culture allows me to walk in any room and say, "I belong here."

And I think that those things, what we're talking about being in the classroom, using the tools of hip hop culture that give kids an outlet, an ability to not just create, but to be creating in a nurturing environment.

Those are the things that's really important, that creates a very, very healthy and confident individuals that can move forward in a world.

<Laura> Ashley Evans teaches dance at Irmo Middle School.

She encourages her students to express their creativity through movement.

<Ashley> Go.

One, two, three and four.

Good.

Go ahead and drop those arms for me when you begin to run.

What we normally do is learn a little bit of the history, the important people that paved the way for learning the vocabulary of the movement, because it's very hard, in my opinion, to really appreciate where you are today without recognizing those who paved the way for you.

And I think a lot of the movements I see on Tik Tok and all of these other trends that come up, students don't realize it came from somewhere else or it's just a reinterpretation or reimagination of a movement that has already existed.

Let's do that mid-nineties groove that we've kind of learned over the past couple weeks, so slide.

♪ > From my experience, hip hop is kind of more loose.

You can really do what you want.

But, like, ballet and jazz, modern, it's, like, more strict.

If we have time at the end of class, we do smaller groups.

We turn off the lights and they get the real onstage feel and we support each other, clap for each other, and it gives them a good practice with a small audience, and then they get the chance to create choreography.

So one of the group you saw created that movement.

Each of the smaller groups created that movement.

That wasn't Miss Evans, that was them.

They had a week, they had a list of requirements, and they really just went above and beyond with that project, and they were proud to show their work, which is exciting.

(clapping) <Marcedez> You just kind of go with the song.

It depends what song you dancing to.

Like, if you dance to a fast song, you dance fast.

If you dance to a slow song, you dance with more feeling, more expression.

Nobody judge you in here.

It's just all family and friends.

Like if you mess up they gonna help you.

It's no judgement in this class.

<Ashley> Here, my biggest push is to get them to feel comfortable with making mistakes.

I want them to learn that mistakes are a part of learning.

It is very difficult to grow without that rollercoaster ride of your ups and downs, and you also get this appreciation of seeing, Wow, this is where I started and this is how far I've grown in this amount of time.

And so trying to figure out how to build relationships and get students to trust themselves and be confident in what they're doing and the choices they're making, and to be okay with making mistakes and just learning and growing from them.

That is really my foundation here, because once I get students to get in that zone that I am great with who I am and where I am, and I will get where I want to be if I just take those baby steps and set goals and get where I want to be, I'll get there eventually.

It doesn't have to be today or tomorrow.

I will get there.

If I can get them to have that growth mindset, I can teach them anything.

But some of the most talented kids are so shy and afraid of being judged, especially in this world of social media.

They're afraid to make a mistake because someone is going to record it and put it up somewhere.

If I can't get that wall knocked down first, I can't really get through to them as a teacher.

So that's really how I get them to to do all of that is just this is a family environment.

We're going to work on building a family first and then we can really fly.

<Naomi> Just be yourself.

And if you need help, ask Ms. Evans.

Or, like, ask one of the students or something like that, just be yourself.

Don't worry about like what anyone else has to say.

Just like, just, Ms. Evans says, "Dance like no one's watching."

<Laura> Sometimes considered controversial based on perceptions around language use, hip hop is also recognized as contemporary poetry.

In fact, in 2018, rapper Kendrick Lamar was awarded a Pulitzer Prize, creating poetry that captures the complexity of modern African American life.

♪ The lyrics that bring these stories to life amplify youth and underrepresented voices, and often highlight rhetorical genius.

>>We were just telling our story and we somehow thought our story would not get heard if we didn't say it.

And then we found ways to be very extreme in the way we said it.

And, and that came with a lot of creativity.

So, it was, it was definitely more about taking the chance to share some sides of myself via the written word.

And then I think the creativity kicked in at some point.

And I try to figure out how many different ways I can say it.

You know, how, how could I affect people?

And that's when I began to realize it was art.

It was, it was for me.

But other people were able to connect with it because they had similar stories.

<Preach> Finding people that look like you is really important.

And so when I was growing up, I would grow up on a Shakespeare, but I would put James Baldwin in the category of things that James Baldwin has written is probably more powerful to me.

And you've had professors nationwide being able to show those parallels.

You know, there were, they were classes called from Shakespeare to Tupac.

And I think that those are the importance of the important things of being able to not just show kids, hey, here's a genre of music that you're listening to, but the historical reference, right?

So, so when you're able to show children, here's a parallel.

Here's how you turn those, tie those things together.

You know, if you're looking at anybody from a Rothko, I would also pull out of Basquiat, you know, and you can show that here's how those connections come together from art.

Representation matters not just for the obvious reasons of seeing someone that looks like me doing something that I might want to do or something that I didn't think I was able to do.

Representation matters because it, it tells you that you are accounted for.

It tells you that you're important enough for me to put on a screen, for me to put in a book, for me to tell your story.

A lot of kids and adults are in that matter.

I don't think it leaves you when you grow up.

Isolation is a very terrible place to be, and a lot of things that, you know, developmental things that children need, self-esteem, being able to communicate with others, being able to, to blossom.

You can't do that when you're worried about am I being seen or heard or, or feeling like your voice doesn't matter.

<FatRat Da Czar> Even though it may not tickle your fancy with with the audio or how it sounds, I think in the lyrics the message is that if kids are they resonating with youth, that's a good place to start in terms of figuring out what they may be feeling inside that they can't articulate.

The only rule of hip hop is you have to be who you say you are.

Your lyrics in hip hop from the start, it was kind of like, you know, I'm from blah blah Street.

I grew up with these guys.

I get a soda pop over there, you know, like, and that grew into, you know, I'm getting $10,000 a show, I got the biggest gold chain to, you know, more introspective, the Tupacs than the Scarface.

Hey, man, I love my mom.

She was there when nobody was there for me.

Or this is a tough time seeing my best friend go through a jail sentence.

So I think to be a part at the time I joined hip hop or became fully immersed.

Authenticity was all you really had, you know.

So, I think in all of my other endeavors as I've gotten older is about the only way I can show up, you know, And I have hip hop to thank for that.

And because hip hop would not allow me to show up any other way, you know, I had to come as myself, the good and the bad.

I'm hoping all teachers of any format can be authentic.

I think it's the only way people really, really can welcome what you have to say.

You know, there's anything especially with kids now, they are tuned in, man.

If there's anything that you're hiding and the fact they can find it in a heartbeat anyway, it's like they appreciate, you know, hey.

<Laura> Dr. Toby Jenkins, professor of higher education and associate provost for faculty development for the University of South Carolina, is the author of The Hip Hop Mindset, a series of interviews with educators embracing hip hop culture.

<Toby> Hi, I'm Toby Jenkins, professor of higher education at the University of South Carolina.

One of the ways that scholars and educators across the globe are celebrating the 50th anniversary of the birth of hip hop is through documenting and reflecting on the culture's influence on American life.

I'm also the director of the Museum of Education, where I've curated an exhibit looking at the influence of hip hop on the field of education over the past 50 years, That exhibit will be on display and open to the public through December.

I've also written a book that was recently published called "The Hip Hop Mindset - Success Strategies for Educators and Other Professionals."

In the book I'm looking at hip hop beyond the art form, beyond the music, beyond the dance, even beyond the graffiti art.

I'm looking at how the culture influences the way that we think our belief systems, the way that we approach life, and more importantly, how we approach work.

I spent time having conversations with educators across the country on their use of hip hop in their professional practice.

These are educators who have had incredible success in their careers, but they have also specifically point to hip hop as one of the reasons for that success.

I am so excited today to have two of those educators that are highlighted in the book, with us.. We have Dr. Tony Keith Jr., who is, yes.

(panelists clapping and cheering) Tony is the CEO and executive director of Ed Emcee Academy in Washington, D.C. We also have Dr.

Crystal Leigh Ensley.

Yeah.

(panelists clapping and cheering) Who is associate professor of Africana studies at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York.

And finally, we have with us Vivian Anderson.

(panelists clapping and cheering) Vivian is an internationally recognized community based educator who is based out right here in Columbia.

She is the CEO and executive director of Every Black Girl.

Yes.

It's the 50th anniversary of the birth of hip hop culture.

And we've been hearing so much about how hip hop is transformative in the classroom.

Right?

It's a tool that is absolutely transformative.

And each of us and each of you in particular have been using hip hop in different ways, right?

So in your work in middle schools and in high schools, community based programs and everything.

So let's start our conversation by talking a little bit about how has hip hop transformed your classrooms or the educational spaces that you lead?

Vivian, let's start, start with you.

<Vivian> Okay, so, so my, me and education was not traditional like Professor and Dr., right?

I'm a volunteer at an African Center charter school in Detroit.

And because of how I was interacting with one of the girls that nobody could reach, all of a sudden, I was teaching the next year.

Don't ask me how.

They brought me in.

And I'm like, okay, so nobody taught me how to teach, right?

So how do I teach somebody how to read or how to teach somebody how to do things?

And hip hop was my thing and that was the only way.

So I was using songs, having them take lyrics from songs they know in hip hop to like, start teaching them how to read.

I remember math.

I'm not good at math, but we took "Y'all Gonna Make Me Lose My Mind" DMX and we tell you, Here, you gonna make me do some math up in here.

And that's how I got the elementary.

And you know, that's the mid-nineties, right?

And then when I was in New York, I was working for the YMCA, and that was at the time when they were creating suspension sites and alternative schools when kids were suspended.

But we had to have them somewhere.

And, you know, as high school students and they're being told to write essays and they don't know how.

And I start from the, there was a book out, "Hip Hop to the Classics" by Michael Cirelli, and I was using that to take hip hop.

Having kids write lyrics, like, whatever come to mind.

Write your lyric, write it out, and taking that lyric form in a sentence, taking those sentences, rapping it together.

This is how we going to do your college essay.

This is how we're going to do your homework.

And so that's how it started transforming, how, you know, the educational way for me, like, I don't know the technical way to teach you, but I know what you like and I know what I like, and we're going to make this further.

And so, and that was another way to hear for me as an educator, to know other things that was going on with them because of how they were using those words.

<Toby> Wow.

Absolutely.

What about you, Doctor Endsley?

<Crystal> So for me, you know, I think hip hop transforms my classroom because hip hop transformed my life.

Right?

So I'm a poet first and foremost.

Always, right?

Spoken word artist.

Every space I answer, I answer first as a poet.

And, and when I think about how what the most excellent teachers I know, whether it's a college classroom or one of my community workshops anywhere around the world, when, when we speak different languages, you know, sometimes I'm working with global girls and communities where we don't even, we don't even speak the same language.

But the thing that hip hop taught me most that I think has made me an excellent performer as well as an educator, is to listen.

The best teachers are the best students.

And so when I enter a classroom, I don't answer as an expert.

I answer as we are, we are co-collaborating.

So it's like, it's like you always say with a cipher, right?

Like, hip hop has taught me not only like I, but when I come to the stage, I'm going to come correct.

I better come 100%.

But also as an audience member, what is my duty, my responsibility?

What role do I play as an audience member?

Because both count equally, right?

It's not just when I'm in the spotlight, but when I'm, when I'm in the audience or supporting another artist or a student that's learning or a global girl in a community, what do I do?

I have to listen, and I have to listen.

I have to listen with my whole body, right?

I have to respond with my whole body.

So we are equal contributors.

And I think because hip hop taught me that, which taught me how to be a great poet or pay attention to my words, it taught me how to listen, you know, and to to really honor both of those positions as audience member.

So as a student and as teacher.

Right?

So it demands that I investigate power.

And also don't be afraid of it, you know?

Use it in my body and then, and then demonstrate that for my students, but also demonstrate how to, how can I be a good audience member and, and friend and, and poet and artist, you know, and all of these different things.

And so I try, I think that's what hip hop, hip hop has transformed me in that way.

<Toby> Right.

<Crystal> And so it transforms everything that I do because I have to approach it as we're co-collaborating on anything that we do.

<Toby> Right, right, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So being, teaching people how or teaching even professionals how to be instructors, because really you're instructing in how to be a, how to be a learner, you know.

And so if you don't demonstrate as an educator in the classroom.

<Crystal> Right.

<Toby> What it looks like and what it means to and how beautiful and exciting it is to be a learner.

<Crystal> Yes.

<Toby> You're always positioned yourself as a knowledge producer or not someone that's also receiving that.

<Crystal> I think as professionals were the way we're expected to show up perfect and, like, we're, we're totally the experts in it.

We're supposed to be experimenting, right?

That's hip hop all over again.

So my classroom is an experiment.

I mean, I have a plan, don't get me wrong, but you know, we're learning to get and I'm not afraid to try something different.

And it might not, I mean, you know, it might not work, but.

<Toby> And that's okay.

That's it.

That's okay.

Because this about being free.

Being free, Tony.

<Tony> I just get so inspired whenever Dr. Endsley talks.

I too enter all spaces as a poet first.

Right?

And so, but for me, it's interesting listening to my colleagues on the stage, what I realize is my sort of approach to integrating hip hop culture into my work as an educator in addition to, like, classroom teaching.

Because I'm not a classroom teacher, I've always been, I was a college professor at some point, but I'm more like community based educator, nonprofit programs, after school programs, very community based afterschool sorts of things.

And so for me, in addition to hip hop culture being about teaching and learning and literacy, for me it's also about research and leadership, right?

And I think that these are areas where hip hop, after 50 years with an education, has really entered this particular space.

I'm, I'm happy to say this.

I'm 42 years old.

Yeah, hip hop is 50.

I don't know a thank you.

I don't know a world without hip hop in it.

Most of us don't know world without hip hop in it.

And all I kept thinking about, especially when I was, like, in the doctoral program, I was studying this stuff.

It's like every single leadership theory I'm reading about people in education.

None of them mentioned anything about poets or spoken word artists or, like, hip hop was not talked about as a leadership practice in education.

And so for me, the way that I look at this is like philosophically, hip hop is that thing in education for like a teacher to move a classroom, right?

Or for like a leader to, like move a community.

But the idea of being an emcee, right?

A mover of the crowd, right, without a microphone, right?

You have a microphone in your classroom, right?

And I look at it like leadership is sort of like when there is a community of folks who I care about who've got issues, how can I move this crowd?

But for me, I ain't a deejay.

I'm not a breakdancer, I'm not a graffiti, I'm a poet spoken word artist all day, right?

So for me, I look at it, how can I move this crowd in education with leadership using my rhythmic spoken words?

Right?

And so for me, I pull up to schools, right?

Colleges, universities, museums will take over for a day with my team of people at the academy.

And we do a lot of, like, deep and student engagement related work.

But it's all rooted in this philosophy that hip hop is a form of leadership.

Right?

<Toby> Right.

Yeah, right, right, right, right.

And that's really what that, the core principle that I was exploring in this book, right, is, is about hip hop as a leadership practice and a leadership practice that's not just for students, but for everyone that, that educators, that administrative leaders, community based leaders, business professionals, healthcare, you know, whatever realm that you work in.

<Panelists> Yes.

That there are some, some ethics and values and some principles that, that, that we can all learn from hip hop, because hip hop influences more than just classrooms and lesson plans, it influences people.

<Tony> Yes.

<Toby> Right, Right.

So let's talk about that.

Let's talk about how we look at it.

Yeah, great.

Yeah.

So, and we'll continue, Tony, with you.

Let's talk about how has hip hop culture influenced the way you move in the world?

<Tony> Yeah.

Okay.

So eighties, baby.

Right?

And I remember growing up listening.

First of all, I'll start with I remember just growing up listening to hip hop music in my house, right?

We talk about hip hop being culture.

I just remember very much like the hip hop music.

My mother has a record player.

I grew up listening to L.L.

Cool J and Queen Latifah, so I grew up at least on hip hop music.

However, as an adult, I understand I was growing up with hip hop culture's music because I was with the culture something like I was also like wearing baggy jeans, right?

And I wanted my Timberland boots and my hat.

But that was sort of the way that folks within hip hop culture were dressing, right?

It felt like there was an identity.

<Panelists> Yes.

<Tony> That got attached to that, right?

And so for me, like hip hop, like the way that it became a part of my identity.

And I said before, I don't know a world without hip hop in it, right?

And so anyway, so there's that.

So I think there's something about showing up as your most authentic self in those spaces.

What hip hop taught me how to do, right?

When I am able to get up on the stage and spit out my poems and the audience react.

And that builds confidence.

Yes, that confidence shows up in my teaching.

Yeah, that confidence shows up in my leadership.

That confidence shows up when I'm in a board meeting with the president of the university in my jeans and sneakers.

<Toby> Right.

<Tony> I think I have to say in your book, like, are we going to talk about the slacks that I'm wearing?

Or are we gonna talk about the policies we need to address.

<Toby> Like what conversation do you want to have?

<Tony> What conversation?

And the hip hop, I'm gonna check you.

(laughter) <Crystal> For me, you know, I'm thinking about this.

I'm thinking about how I grew up, and I grew up in a church.

We didn't listen to secular music in the house.

We weren't allowed to, right?

And for me, when I think about what hip hop taught me, because you can't, it's more than just the music, right?

But I think about the most creative, you know, I love Missy Elliott.

(cross-talk) But the creativity that was there was something that was nurtured in my household.

And I think when I learned about the four elements of hip hop and then I learned about the knowledge of self, the fifth element of hip hop, which is that, that spiritual component, I recognize it's something I've been doing all along.

<Tony> That's the thing.

<Crystal> Right, and it was the spoken word.

It was the poetry was the performance that I, that I identified with.

Right?

I couldn't afford the brand names, right?

But it was something about the, the energy, right?

And the boldness and the fearlessness that, that resonated with me so deeply in these artists that I would see.

And so for me, realizing once I finally put language around like, Oh, this is the fifth element of hip hop knowledge of self.

<Tony> Yes.

<Crystal> how I know myself helps me move in the world in every space I answer, then I can answer boldly, unashamed, unapologetic, ready to serve and help somebody.

Right?

And that's the creativity.

That's the fun and the funkiness.

I could, I could bring all of that everywhere I went because it was coming, whether I acknowledge it or not, you know?

So to know yourself is to know the universe and to know God.

And when I realized that the, that was the space I had been occupying and just didn't have the language for until I learned about the fifth element of hip hop, it shifted everything for me.

<Toby> Because Dr. E, one of the things that you've said is that the hip hop showed you, that it was okay to be a lot, right?

And I think that's such an important statement because we often feel that way about some students.

<Crystal> Right.

<Toby> You know, it's like there a lot going on always.

(laughter) <Tony> You know, who in the building today.

<Toby> Right.

To not get students to be.

But understanding that it is okay to, to be a lot, that if that's your personality, it's okay and if the teacher, the instructor, the educator, the facilitator recognize that it's okay for them to be a lot, then it's okay for the students in your room to also be a lot.

<Crystal> Yeah.

No, it's okay.

But it's the freedom.

<Toby> The freedom.

<Crystal> Freedom of modeling that.

Right!

And then seeing a reflection because I saw a reflection of myself in those artists in a way that I was told or raised or socialized not to.

I couldn't do that.

I couldn't take up that space.

I better be quiet.

There's danger in speaking up, and so to be able to be bold because I saw it modeled this way and to enjoy it.

<Crystal> We're allowed to have fun.

<Tony> Yeah.

<Crystal> We're I'm, having fun with y'all today.

<Toby> Right!

You can be yourself.

<Crystal> Yeah.

<Toby> To just be yourself.

And then guess what?

When you relax enough to just be yourself, it's amazing how open you are to learning.

<Vivian> Exactly.

Right.

<Toby> Any other.

<Tony> Go ahead.

<Vivian> Yeah, I don't got them deep... <Tony> That's okay.

(laughing) That sounds like - 'cause you can tag team because I'm like... <Vivian> I go to avoid...because Because I knew a life before hip hop right.

I came in with hip hop.

I'm over 50.

So... (laughing) <Crystal> I don't believe it.

<Vivian> Looking like I have memories.

>Tony Show me the receipts.

<Vivian> But how did it help me move into the world?

Right.

That's that question is sitting with me because at a time - I grew up in Detroit, right?

And so at a time where, especially as you're in school, you're told to be in one place or do like if you this you have to be over here.

If you this you have to be over here.

Hip hop was the only place where it's like get in where you fit in for real, for real, and not like as a aftermath.

It was like, Well, I kind of write.

Okay.

So you write.

Well, I like to be on the mic.

And so we all so it felt like there was no competition and we weren't forced like.

Okay they the breakers and we all played our position and created community.

That was another thing that was in the place where I found some community, and that's a place where it helped me navigate through the world because it became like one of your pieces starts.

It's like it was the piece where all that was happening.

<Crystal> Yes.

<Vivian> That I was able to get out in a safe way, but like, Hey, you heard me now how you respond to me and come offer me support is another story, but I get to say it.

<Toby> Get to say it.

<Vivian> I get to say it, and so and so.

Since then I've been navigating that way even when you talk about the kids, that's too much like hip hop.

You had to be everything.

Like, it's like, - They be like girl get up from here.

So I'm like, okay.

I start looking at it like, Oh, I'm not too much.

You just don't not have enough capacity to hold me.

So you gotta do some stuff, and it helps me navigate in every space as a, <Tony> Can't deal with all this.

<Vivian> you know, a leader of an organization, working with staff, working with kids like, um mmm.

We get to create this space and then bring others along and teach them how to be their fullest self, Because it's not that I'm too much, I'm being my full self.

You're still hiding some stuff, so you're shrinking and then you want me to shrink with you, but I can't do it, and that's something that... <Tony> and that idea of being your most authentic self can be, so I think for a lot of folks, very challenging when you really don't know who you are, right?

When there's that missing connection of knowledge of self and I get it.

It's tricky.

You can't tell people what their history is.

Right, but like the idea that you might be missing parts of your history, whatever, but something about knowing that.

And I think that when people like us show up in these educational spaces that are usually very confined, where hip hop is regarded as some mess... only monstrous music, misogynist, hot mess...

When we show up just embodying the culture, <Crystal> Right.

<Tony> I've seen firsthand how that inspires teachers, principals, students.

I had a principal tell me once like, Hey, Dr. Keith, so glad you came there.

Look, man, look at my shoes.

and he had on like, I think some Jordan Ones.

I think to myself, like, you're a principal of a school wearing your Jordans.

This is exactly what - That's leadership.

Young people then see you and realize you are relatable.

You are approachable.

One of the reasons why I know this incredible woman in the show today is because in college this was like my hip hop advisor.

<Crystal> Right.

<Tony> She was an adminstrator and I was a student,... (laughing) <Vivian> People don't need all that.

<Tony> But it's true, because that relationship brought me here, and so I was like, she was wearing like hip hop saved my life, t-shirts and stuff, and I'm like, 'What is this?

', you know.

so we inspire folks when we come to buildings like that, being authentic because I think a lot of them feel like they can't be.

<Toby> Right, right, right, because one of the things that I talk about in the book is how, again, growing up with hip hop in, you know, late 40s as well, right.

Right here, and there was a time period where I felt like there was the pressure to be authentic.

There was a pressure.

It was so thick and it was like serious, right?

It might have been like in the late 80s, early 90s or whatever, and it was like, you know, "You better keep it real."

"Streets are watching.

", you know, that those types of things, and it felt like a pressure, but now I look back on it and I laugh because I'm like, it was a permission.

It was a permission to be your authentic self <Vivian> Yes, yes.

<Toby> To show up authentically and an expectation for you to do so, to just to not discard who you are and to be your full self.

That's such an important act of liberation, I think that all of us need.

<Crystal> Yes.

<Toby> Students and educators.

Were you going to say something?

<Crystal> Honey, I done forgot the... <Vivian> - that permission.

<Tony> That's a t-shirt.

<Crystal> Right.

Permission not pressure, and I think that's ...everything that y'all are saying is just echoing for me because it's like you you show up authentically and you face, you kick the door down so we could walk through, right and take a whole and publish our first dissertations, our our first books about poetry.

Right, and hip hop culture.

You made space for that, and just by you doing that, we were like, Oh, this is possible.

It's a possibility, and I don't have to pick a side for anything.

I don't have to be confined or restricted to just because this is the mainstream narrative.

This is what they tell me, Oh, people like you are supposed to do this, this and this.

I don't have to perform it that way.

<Toby> Right.

So it expands possibilities.

We talk all the time about it being a culture of of welcome.

Like whatever you can contribute is welcome.

Right.

Right.

And even in you know, one of the other things that I think when you really step back and just reflect on the culture, I mean, it's one of those that the closer you get, like the...more you immerse yourself in a hip hop environment, the more inspired by it you feel.

Right.

The fresher you feel.

The louder the music is played, the fresher you feel, the closer you are to the stage, the fresher you feel, and I say all the time, That's how educational spaces should be.

<Vivian> Should be.

<Toby> The more that time we spend it at, the more brilliant we should feel.

<Crystal> Right.

<Toby> So we really need to, as educators, reflect on what do our environments feel like and how welcoming and inspiring and, you know, is it for the students that are coming in there?

<Tony> You are speaking about the conditions for learning engagement within educational space.

The conditions under which in which people are learning and engaging and teaching, and I'm thinking right now about many, many years ago I ran a college prep program for kids in D.C. high schools, and it was a summer program primarily, and the short story is these kids, it was about 45 of them.

they would commute from different parts of Washington, D.C. to this church I was working out of, believe it or not, and they would come to 8:00 in the morning every day like clockwork in the summer.

<Crystal> Yeah.

<Tony> Right?!

And these students would say, Mr. Keith I hate school, but I like coming to this thing you got going on and all like, Well, I know I don't understand now, but like, there was something about the conditions in this educational environment that I had some control over.

I could bring all the hop and the poetry and be my authentic self as opposed to like a particular school setting that might be a little bit more rigid, and so that idea of like hip hop as a place where conditions can become inspiring for students to learn, that's a, that's a nugget.

That's a golden nugget right there.

<Crystal> Yeah, go ahead.

<Vivian> No, Go ahead.

<Crystal> No, go ahead.

Come on Viv.

Talk.

<Vivian> No, '‘cause, um...

Okay.

Thank you, Lord.

One of the things also that I'm hearing as you all talk is that one of the core things that hip hop did and we can tap...and I don't want to tap around it so I'm going to just go, Hip hop was one of the first to say, let's talk about race.

<Toby> Yes.

<Vivian> Let's talk about the conditions that's creating the things that we're saying.

Hip hop gave us space, and so when you have students that say, I can't do school because I'm confining you, I can't let you be your authentic self, I can't let you know the truth about yourself.

I can't help I can't have you do that, because you won't be this thing that we're trying to tame.

Hip hop and having those kind of spoken word spaces, those hip hop spaces.

Kids are like, No, I do.

I understand, and so when you see the activism that came out of hip hop and that's another way it shaped me like it's because of like how I moved in hip hop where I can actually watch a video and be like, No, we're supposed to go down there.

I'm supposed to be in the community.

It's about the community.

Hip hop, is it, you know, like, so it's doing all those things.

It's why I'm here, right?

It's literally why I'm here, and it was like keeping it real.

Don't just talk about it, be about it.

Bring your receipts, right!

So it's one of the things you said something.

You said something.

I think what came and I'm gonna be using this is that hip had a way of calling us forth.

Not about... when you say that authentic, authenticity it called you forth and it wouldn't allow you, if you really think about it.

It was the only place that really said you ain't gonna be your lower self.

<Tony> Yes.

<Vivian> Not in running this.

<Tony> Yeah.

<Vivian> Other spaces would be like, okay, well just sit there quietly.

<Tony> Mediocrity is fine.

<Vivian> Mediocrity is fine.

Hip hop is like, like bring it on.

<Tony> Yes.

I want the smoke.

<Vivian> All of it, all of it, all of it, and we going to keep.

Oh, they took it from school?

We've got to go build it over here.

<Tony> Yes.

<Crystal> Right.

<Vivian> And then all the rebuilding.

<Tony> Rebuild the remixing.

Remastering.

<Crystal> This, this makes me so - Y'all know October 11th is the International Day of the Girl, right?

Yes.

This is what this is some, some where else I've been able to bring hip hop and spoken word poetry to the global girls, to the United Nations headquarters in New York City.

<Tony> Talk your stuff.

<Crystal> In a show that is only It is run, written and performed and shared by global girls.

<Vivian> Yep.

Yeah.

<Crystal> High school girls I'm talking to age 18 and under.

Hip hop did that.

<Vivian> Hip hop... <Crystal>Hip hop did that.

I've been in spaces.

I've been in communities in Hawassa, Ethiopia, in Soweta, South Africa, where girls are facing the types of circumstances here in the United States, we <Vivian> We can't fathom.

<Crystal> We can't even imagine.

You know, what allows them to speak up and show up <Vivian> The word.

<Crystal> and have some joy?

It's hip hop.

<Tony> Yes.

<Crystal> It's hip hop, and that creates that space, and so we're - this is now the 10th Annual Girls Speak Out program coming up on October 10, 2023. at the UN.

<Vivian> Yes.

Come on, girl!

<Crystal> You know what I'm saying and y'all have brought girls up to the United Nations <Toby> from Columbia <Crystal> From Columbia, South Carolina They came up.

I came down there to work.

I mean, it's the whole exchange, right.

I came down there to workshop, they came up and were hearing their words performed at the seat of Global Power in the United Nations, in the big conference chamber, where decisions and policy gets made.

Black girls and South Carolina's poetry <Tony> Yeah <Crystal> getting called and responded to in an audience full of 500 other girls and livestreamed <Tony> Yes that's hip hop <Crystal> and that's hip hop because it says, it says okay you recognize the conditions are raggedy.

You know they've tried to mute you.

They said, B, you can only be this.

We're going to limit you with this.

You don't have these resources, and the power of that, that's what spoken word does.

Hip hop says you're making something out of what you got and what you got is enough?

<Toby> Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Emotional safety.

You need to cry.

You need to scream, You need to yell, laugh or whatever you need to do <Tony> Emotional safety.

<Toby> Do it, do it, do it, but, you know, I'm so glad you moved in to spoken word, because I think that's a realm of hip hop that all of us share a love for.

Right?

We've all engaged, spoken word, in some ways.

The two of you are internationally recognized, spoken word artists.

Right!

You've been all over the world performing (laughing) You know, and then even as as educators or arts administrators or curators or right, cultural curators, we created space spoken word spaces at schools and universities across the country.

You traveled to schools and universities doing spoken word, right, right.

So let's talk first about just what exactly is spoken word and how is that different from rapping?

<Crystal> Well, Toby, I think I can show you better than I could tell you.

<Toby> Okay <Tony> Okay.

(applause) <Crystal> You want to hear it?

Here it go.

<Vivian> Hello.

<Crystal> I never wanted to write poetry.

I only wanted to manage my pain.

Stuff my hurt into the curves, the letters, consonants that beat like fist to make us all feel better.

We've been strategically positioned for failure, so they are surprised when we succeed.

Be careful not to confuse humility with defeat.

Don't make judgments based on what you see.

Still water still run deep, so you best to sit still, if you got shaky feet, you best to keep quiet if you're not sure what to speak, but your silence won't protect you and it will not set you free.

As for me, I want a cheap thundercloud Che Guevara, Harriet Tubman's daughter.

So I feel right at home with my Carolina Classrooms supporters, and if God be for us, that makes us unstoppable, if it looks impossible, if it sounds illogical, that keeps things exciting.

We don't blink at obstacles.

We don't shrink at threats.

We don't rescind our statements.

We don't expect you to understand if your vision ain't there yet.

And yes, times do get hard.

I still hit my knees.

Call out to Almighty God.

He told me, "Girl, get up, get dressed, "put your good shoes on because the war is not over."

You got to love all of my people, no matter where they are, from that freestyle cipher on the corner to the rising academic superstar.

Use your words to remind them who they are.

and like soft velvet gloves over brass knuckles.

Baby, we hit hard Surprise.

We go far across the spectrum of a lyrical refrain.

Honey, this is what you get when you mix Cornel West with Lil Wayne.

Malcolm X meets Queen Elizabeth's reign.

The House of Representatives meets the House of Payne, the shaolin simple in the clan of Wu-Tang.

I do my thing.

I'm one half master, one half runaway slave.

I am Pecos Bill Paul Bunyan meets Apache Indian Brave.

I will scalp you just to get to your brain.

So if there is a flesh wound and you find yourself in pain, I'm Professor X, or you could just call me the doctor.

I am Lena Horne meets Lady Gaga.

We go further.

We hit harder.

I am Carmen Electra mixed with Patricia Hill Collins, the highest of heaven, swingin' low to the earth.

The boy from the mobile home trailer park met a girl buying high fashion.

I was.

The accident that happened.

In other words, I was what got birthed.

Things got noisy like the Titans was clashing.

Bobo Hill Dread Rasta meets heavy metal thrasher, a beautiful disaster.

They work hard.

We work faster.

I am your favorite video vixen and your favorite TV preacher.

I am both yet I am neither.

I'm Crystal Leigh.

It's nice to meet you.

(applause) <Crystal> Y'all keep that applause going.

We gonna bring up Dr. Tony Keith, Jr. (applause) <Tony> Here we go.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm wanting your energy.

Here we go.

Thank you.

You can save someone from drowning, and my dad is a minister, and he says, Son, if your sermon is good, you can save someone's soul, but I've never really been the type of person to ask for help, but if I needed some saving today, trust me, you all would know.

But won't be sending out an S.O.S.

message or interrupting your regularly scheduled programs.

I won't be sending you an email, a text message, or putting anything on Facebook, TikTok, Snapchat, or Instagram, but instead you'll find me on a stage, usually with a piece of paper in my left and a pen in my right hand, my mouth to be wide open and a vein poking out of my neck, my eyes will be shut tight as I focus on every single breath just to make sure that my lungs have enough capacity to create words that can defy the laws of gravity and swirl into a vortex of knowledge causing supernatural catastrophes, and while this poem ain't no tragedy, it might be some casualties, If you're not prepared to battle me.

If you're feeling froggy today, then you all can jump You know my poems are not for tricks, and they certainly aren't for chumps.

Look, I do this for a reason.

I write this for those of you with terminal diseases.

I write this for those of you who probably as a kid want to Netflix and chill, but your parents are preachers.

I write this for those of you who love your momma, but all she does is scream at you.

I write this for those of you who love your daddy, although his eyes have never seen you.

I write this for those of you who miss getting a good night's sleep after hearing your grandma sing a sweet song to you, I write this for you.

I write this for those of you that work so hard to create change, you get frustrated, but Toby you still maintain.

I write this for you.

I write this for those of you who don't have answers, yet one that's always being forced from you.

Y'all I've learned that sometimes saying I don't know is a lie, but sometimes saying I don't know is the truth.

I write this for you.

I write this for those of you whose sexuality is unacceptable until it's received society's stamp of approval, and I write this for those of you that want to claim your birthright as a daughter of Oshun.

I've been battling poetry, until my ink bleeds black and blue.

I'm just a superhero, y'all with a cape made of metaphors, trying to use my words to simply save you, and yes, y'all, at some point in time, I may need a little bit of saving, but I've been investing and paying into my bank of poetry account for a little while now so I can afford a little misbehaving, but I'm not in the game of playing with people's minds.

And yes, y'all, some of them, my words in this poem do rhyme, but I've been doing this for a while, so it just kind of happens sometimes, and yes memorization will make any of my performances good, but if I had them here, I would pick up all my books to read my messages to make sure that none of my words get misunderstood.

Like I told y'all before, I do this for a reason and this gift, it is not temporary.

It does not change with the seasons.

That means I can spit fire while the sky is hot.

Or, I can cool it down while the water is freezing, and if words having power isn't something that you all believe in then I will spit on my fingertips, reach out my poem, and turn this studio into an altar call, and I'll start saving all of you heathens.

<Crystal> Yeah.

<Tony> Because, you see, I care about your futures.

I care about your destinies.

I care about your legacies, and I want y'all to know my name.

I want y'all to look up in the sky and say this with me.

Is that a bird?

<Audience> Is that a bird?

<Tony> Yes.

Is that a plane?

<Audience> Is that a plane?

<Tony> I wish y'all were screaming, "No, it is poetry, and I'm a poet, a social agent of change.

Piecing letters to words and words to sentences, and sentences to sounds.

I can leap over metaphors in one single bound.

I am powerful enough to spark protest for equality in ghetto communities.

Talk slicker than politicians that create policies that grant rich people immunities.

Y'all.

I didn't choose to be saved by poetry.

Poetry chose me.

Doctor E Poetry crept up inside my momma's womb and poetry started tickling me.

I've been speaking in these rhythmic patterns since I was in grade three and will continue till I'm through.

So who am I?

This is Dr. Tony Keith Jr. a simple superhero with a cape made of metaphors, trying to use my words to simply save you.

(Applause) That's grown.

<Vivian> Both of y'all.

Both of y'all.

<Tony> Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All the hugs.

All the hugs.

<Vivian> Group hug.

(laughing) <Toby> All right.

All right.

So let's come back together.

Let's come back together.

<Tony> I wanted to respond, I wanted to respond to your question about our relationship.

I'm assuming that's where you were going to go.

<Toby> Yes.

Yes.

<Tony> That so, because when I was in the moment I realized that the relationship really does exist sort of on that stage.

Hip hop, there's this thing called a cipher within hip hop, right.

You form a circle.

There's an energy that's created and people inside back in the day they did break dancing, whatever, but like, what happens with hip hop, there's a spirit that takes place in this little cipher moment where rhythmic words happen.

And so the relationship happens at the poetry.

Right!

So when you think about rap music, you take the music, you take the instrumentals out of that, it's poems structured on the page, right?

Some of my favorite hip hop artists are poets Tupac Shakur, Queen Latifah, Nas, like so many started off even Kanye West, Lauryn Hill started off writing poetry.

That is, that relationship, spoken word is the performance of that poetry.

Right!

Now, there's also another lens that I put on spoken word, too, which is I wanted to say that is because I also put it in the context of hip hop being culture created by Black folks and slave people, right?

Not all Black people.

Let me rephrase that.

Hip hop being something created from African people, right?

When you think about the beat, the drum, the rhythm that already existed before they were enslaved.

Right!

And as as a descendant of those people, I inherited that.

I know I did.

It's all up in me somehow, Right?

And so for me, I look at it like spoken word is also a literacy practice, because my ancestors did not have access to the written word.

Right!

So therefore we needed the spoken word to communicate.

Right!

To share messages.

We're putting this joint in spirituals.

We're putting it in songs.

We're putting it in poems, but it is a literacy practice about freedom.

<Crystal> Yeah.

<Tony> Right!

So there's this performance of the poetry, but then there's a thing that happens in the cipher where there's a freedom that takes place.

That's a hip hop ... <Toby> Why do y'all think?

Because I'm looking at it now, I mean, the performances and thinking about kind of what you're sharing with the historical context of it all.

Right!

I'm looking at all of you who I work with in so many different ways over the course of decades.

Right.

We've been doing this for decades.

<Tony> That's wild.

<Toby> Right, right, right, right.

Right along with hip hop!

<Vivian> Oh my God.

It's been a minute.

<Toby> But it's still, particularly when we talk about spoken word, it's still something that is an art form that's still highly engaged across all generations, multiple generations, all levels of education, whether they're college students to elementary school students, you can still you can get all of them, everybody can...engage and are still interested in it.

Right!

They're still interested in it.

Why do y'all think it's so enduring?

<Crystal> Well, oh, go ahead Viv.

Go.

<Vivian> because it was off something when you ask the distinction for me, has been there is such intimacy with the spoken word?

<Crystal> Yeah.

<Vivian> Like there's something to stand there and literally share all of you, and there's a way and you watched it that they receive, and share back.

And when we rappin' it, you can hide in a rap.

<Crystal> Yeah.

<Vivian> You cannot hide with spoken word.

<Tony> Oh, that's a ball.

<Vivian> There's literally no like.

It's like, okay.

Mm hmm.

Mm <Tony> Hmm.

<Crystal> Yeah.

<Vivian> And then there's this hug that happens.

There's not this overshadowing, like, to rap it.

And we know it all has rhythmic flow, but there's something different.

There's a level of intimacy, ciphers, like ciphers we do, but there's something about.

<Crystal> Yeah.

<Vivian> letting that one person, or even if it's more than one, but listening.

<Crystal> Yes, that's it.

<Vivian> That listening.

And you're listening because you'll have a person.

I ain't trying to be funny, but I'll be like, Oh, I just like the beat.

(All say "Right!")

<Tony> That's always <Vivian> I was like child.

I don't know what they saying but that beat is <Crystal> Right!

<Vivian> Ain't no way I'm a leave an open mic and like, I don't know what they said.

It's like, let me tell you.

Did you hear what that child said?

And then you're listening like, Oh, I didn't even know that was happening.

It becomes your own news channel because it's so intimate.

<Crystal> And the everything is relationship.

It is always about right relationship.

And I think about that.

I think about that in terms of power dynamic.

You know, from a feminist person from a black feminist focus from feminism as a color from Global Girl.

You think about girls, you always have to think about the power dynamic there.

And when we think about justice and it is investigating what does a right relationship look like?

And I think spoken word does, it reduces everything down.

It's the concentrated and there is nowhere to hide.

There is no, you are in the audience.

You are accountable immediately for what happens on that stage and not just what happens on that stage.

What are you going to do about it?

<Tony> Yes, yes.

<Crystal> What are you going to do with this?

<Crystal> And you can't you can't say, Oh, I didn't catch that or I didn't understand or I didn't know, because it is a, it is a physically, it's your body, it's your spirit and it's your mind all at one time.

And that relationship, I think it's most powerful.

And the people who have experienced that, they walk away.

My students who I'm so nervous, I'm not a poet.

They perform for the first time in the classroom.

They see themselves differently, because they see something reflected in that audience that they haven't seen reflected in their own mirror.

<Tony> Yes.

<Crystal> So it's really it's my relationship with you.

It goes back to fifth element.

My relationship with you through spoken word shifts, my relationship with myself.

I learn more who I am and I learn more who you are, and then we learn what this world is, and how are we going to change it?

Are we going to change it?

<Vivian> That's that.

That's <Tony> You said learning.

I couldn't help but to throw in this moment, this idea of like ways of knowing, because I'm even thinking of hip hop ways of knowing, shock to your mindset, but like, you know, because I always tell people I'm like, I'm not a rapper, I have rapped, but I that's just not my jam.

And I realized something in terms of ways of knowing.

I think about this in terms of spoken word, poetry and, rap, because with rap, it's poetry spoken over a time beat.

And it must rhyme.

<Crystal> Yes, <Tony> Right.

And usually it's linked in bars like there's a very limited it's sort of like a regular <Crystal> There's structure.

<Tony> Structure.

Spoken word is a little bit more like I can be as free or as flex as I can, but I realize that I'm someone I'm like, I hear words before I hear melodies.

So when I'm writing my poetry, I'm writing the poetry sort of as I hear it, I hear the words first, the rhythm just it...

It just shows up.

For some people, their way of knowing.

They hear that.

They're like, Oh, I hear that beat, Give me the pen.

Give me the pen.

Let me write the words down.

Mine is, I guess, opposite, you know, or whatever.

I think there's something to be said about ways of knowing that way and even teaching young people, even adults, like when you bobbin' your head and coming up with stuff that is you exercizing your way of knowing, you know, what I mean, when you're writing a you know, I mean, <Crystal> It's the thing and I think too, I think that's something else spoken word does specifically and uniquely as this art form, and that's why it is so long lasting.

Once you get a taste of it, <Tony> Yeah, <Crystal> there's nobody who has ever performed that, if given an opportunity, would not perform <Tony> right.

<Crystal> It...shifts everything, And I know for me this is back to part of what hip hop taught me, but hip hop taught me through performance of spoken word, is that confidence.

<Tony> Yes.

Yes, absolutely <Crystal> I can be.

Because guess what?

I only have to be up there.

I only have to say it's my body.

It's my experience, and no one else is coauthoring this joint.

<Tony> How about that?

<Crystal> It's me <Vivian> and that...we're talking like spoken word versus rapping, but also looking at spoken word versus what we do with traditional poetry.

Well there's also, another There's such a restriction in the writing and it's like best read but spoken word is such a lived experience.

<Tony> Yeah.

<Vivian> I can pick up what Chris suggested and I'll be like It's got to be read.

It's got to be spoken.

It's got to be spoken.

In the beginning was the word?

Like you know what I'm saying?

Right?

Yeah.

So he's telling us what like the word is It's the word that's going to connect.

Like you said, no matter where you are, it doesn't put a restriction on which words you use.

<Tony> How about that?

<Vivian> So if I want to say, yo or if I want to say you or if I want to say y'all, but the way and the way it's received, there's less critique there.

<Toby> Yeah, right.

<Vivian> There's less critique.

So it does once again for classroom allows that freedom.

<Toby> There is so much power I think in the the metaphorical mic because microphone <Tony> All these T-shirts, <Toby> you know, like evry line... (all laugh) What's going on?

<Toby> But seriously like a microphone is such a powerful object.

<Tony> Yes.

<Toby> Right.

And so for the person that is speaking on that microphone, it is telling you that your words matter.

<Crystal> Yes.

<Toby> Right.

And so it's such a life giving.

Life changing.

Life transforming.

We see even within hip hop culture how the microphone literally transforms people's lives.

It has changed their bank accounts.

It's like literally.

It's literally.

But it's a powerful thing to recognize and to know that people around the world are listening.

<Tony> Yeah.

<Toby> like you said, that people are hearing what you're saying, and I think as we kind of close out the conversation, I want to pick back up on something that you said, Vivian, about the hug that you received, the hug you receive from the audience, from... - because I think that's so important, when y'all finish, like, we literally hugged.

(laughing) <Tony> You got to do something with that energy.

<Toby> But it does.

It generates this feeling of goodness, community, right?

That you want to embrace the person.

You are so thankful for, the gift that they've given and shared and and how they bared their souls, but then the audience gives you a hug as well, even if they're not physically touching you, it's this feeling of being connected in some ways.

How are we doing that in classrooms?

How are we creating that metaphorical hug in the classroom community where we can all connect and just be and feel free and love each other and love what you can contribute?

you don't have to contribute, like you say, one specific constricted it, directed thing.

Yeah, but what is it that you have to give?

We'll take it.

<Crystal> Yes, and celebrate it.

We recognize you.

We see you.

We hear you.

We believe you.

<Toby> Yes.

<Tony> Also, I'm so glad now is absolutely it's been the time that we use words like love and hug in education.

I just want to say that I'm so glad that this is happening because those, multiple words like that are usually sort of like, you know, disregarded, but I'm like, no, I love my students.

I hug them.

You know, I mean, within appropriate.

So, yeah, we need to talk about the love as a condition for learning, you know, I mean, like, how can you create an atmosphere with people and even your own self feels love.

<Crystal> Right!

<Tony> You know, like, <Toby> Yes, well, I love you all.

<All> I love you.

(applause) <Toby> Thank you so much, y'all.

Thank you for this wonderful conversation.

Thank you.

<All> Thank you.

<Toby> So thank you all for joining me in this conversation.

And we hope that you do what you can, not just in 2023 to, to celebrate hip hop culture, but continue to engage it, learn about it, embrace it, discover it.

Pick up a copy of the hip hop mindset and learn more about it in 2023 and beyond.

(applause) ♪ <Laura> Thank you so much for joining us.

We'll be back on TV in November featuring student journalism projects.

♪