Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart, celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.

The best cook in the world is about family, food, and the south and the connections among them, Rick Bragg's mother doesn't own a measuring cup or a measuring spoon.

She cooks and dabs smidgens and tans.

Let's meet my guest, Leda MacIntre Hall.

To learn more about this time and place.

Welcome.

Thank you.

It's good to have you on the show.

Thank you.

Good to be here.

Be fun to cook.

Yes, it is going to be fun to cook.

And where did you find this book?

I mean, you had this in mind when I talked to you.

How did it come about?

Rick Bragg wrote a book in 1987 called All Over but The Shoutin, which was a brief history of his life and times with his mother and brothers growing up in Possum Trot, Alabama.

And it has become one of my favorite books of all time.

So I watch for his new books and saw this one.

And it was about cooking and his mother.

So and I couldn't resist.

Oh, yes.

And, you know, it's a lovely--a loving tribute to his mother.

It is--there's a time, there's a place, there's the culture.

And it has accumulated over time.

And we're going to try to replicate some of these foods that they've cooked in the South since the Civil War.

But first of all, let's talk about what we're going to cook.

What are you doing today?

I'm going to make a peach cobbler.

Rick's mom says her recipe is for blackberry cobbler, but that you can use whatever's in season.

So peaches are in season.

We're going to make a peach cobbler, some slaw, and a skillet of cornbread.

That sounds good.

Good start.

And I am going to be working on some meatloaf, a southern meatloaf, which means it has a lot of fat in it.

And then I'm going to do collard greens and I've got the thickest, the heaviest collard greens.

So they're going to have to cook a long time, but we're going to make them the southern way with vinegar and garlic and onions and that.

And some bacon drippings, too.

So let's get started.

You're going to start there.

I'm just going to say what I'm going to do and you can talk about what you're doing.

All right.

I'm going to put some hamburger together and she says, get the cheapest and the fattest.

So that's why it's pretty greasy.

I'm going to add chopped onions, garlic, and an egg and some chopped green pepper and some red.

Oh, what am I adding here?

It's a red pepper and I love that fact.

I didn't realize they used red pepper.

That was--that was one of her main spices.

Just a little bit of--just a dab.

A dab.

Right.

Or a smidge.

And I like spicy food this so this makes me happy.

I'm going to get started with this.

Squeezing the meat and adding the bread.

And--so you tell us what you're doing, tell everybody what's going on.

I peeled the peaches a while ago so that they could sit in the sugar and get some liquor.

Yeah, she said so that they have a lot of juice and I've added blueberries.

And my mama said to me use peaches, you always have to have a little dab of nutmeg.

So differing just a little bit from Margaret's recipe there with just a touch of nutmeg.

I just want to add, too, that they said if you really don't have enough food to eat, and they rarely did eat beef, that to stretch it, just keep adding bread and that will be a filler.

And, you know, there were times in the Depression when they were--they had just a little chunk of pork leftover.

And that would be the whole center for the spicing and the--and the taste of a dish.

Sure.

It was pretty hard times some--some of those years.

But a little bit of pork with seasoned collard greens or pot of beans.

And I'm going to add some of the bacon drippings to the collard greens.

I'm going to add an egg.

Some recipes call for an egg, some don't.

And I'm going to squeeze some more here.

This is fun.

This is like playing with wet sand.

And I'm stirring up the--the dough sort of like a thin biscuit dough for the top of the cobbler and just going to sort of drop it around on top of the--.

Yeah, that's good.

Cobbler.

My mom made it that way.

197 00:05:09,550 --> 00:05:11,230 I'm adding chopped onions and we're going to add some salt and pepper and green pepper and I'm doing this with my hands.

I think her kitchen probably had a big pot, a skillet, and a spoon.

I think those were the essentials.

We didn't have all these nice things.

You used your hands.

And so that's what we're doing today.

She added some tomato sauce, but when I made this, I thought it needed more tomato sauce because you really couldn't taste it.

But you see, then I'm getting away from the authentic taste, and then I'll put it in a loaf pan.

Last time I added some bacon drippings.

But I think this meat, I follow the instructions.

A lot of fatty meat, cheap meat.

She said that's what you have to have.

You got to have that fat in there.

And so I'll just stir this and we'll get it in.

And the bacon drippings also added some flavor and she probably had a tin can behind her stove so that when she fried her bacon, she poured that in and had it all ready.

I bet, all of our mothers had something for drippings.

My mother had hers under the sink.

She had a jar there.

And I remember once I wanted to make muffins for the first time and she made me use the bacon drippings.

And I was--I almost cried, but I did it.

I mean, my mother told me I had to.

So that was that.

All right.

So I have this ready to pop in the oven.

Good.

Now, how long are you going to bake that?

Is that 20 minutes?

We're going to try after 20 minutes.

OK, after 20 minutes.

So that means--.

Of the things about the recipes, she says is you do it by smell.

I can't quite do it by smell.

So we're going to go with 20 minutes and see.

Sure.

And that would be about 20 after.

I think that would be about right.

I'm about ready to pop this in.

Now, talking about some of these stories and the characters.

I think when we start off we meet Ava and her young husband, Charles, and he is starving because Ava doesn't cook.

She doesn't know how to and she doesn't want to.

And don't you make me, right?

Right.

That's the way she was.

I don't give a darn about your food.

And she's a handful.

So who helps her out?

Who comes in to help out?

So Ava's husband goes off to the woods to--to find his father, who was sort of on the lam.

Yes, he was been in trouble.

In a cabin in the woods.

And so he rode his mule up and begged his father to come in and teach Ava how to cook.

And so, sort of reluctantly, he packs up and they come back down to, uh, to where Ava and Charlie live.

But she was stubborn as a mule and she wouldn't listen and would roll her eyes at him.

And, you know, you could just see this sort of hand on her hip and stomping her feet.

She's like 'I came from a family where we didn't--the women didn't cook.'.

And so she's just not going to and her husband is getting so weak.

And so Charlie started very simple.

He showed her how to make biscuits and how to make gravy.

And eventually, they baked a chicken and she would watch.

And--and I think after a while, because she saw her husband enjoying all this good food so much, she softened ever so slightly and--and would listen to the old man when he would giver her instruction.

Took a while, a long time.

He just was so nice.

She didn't react.

He just said he just kept going.

And, you know, she started watching.

He didn't say 'Come here, you stupid woman'.

And it worked out.

He had the right sense of how to handle her.

And one could be surprised that, you know, maybe at that time and place they wouldn't have been so nice to them.

And apparently, when she got to be too much, he would sometimes just go out on the porch and I think take a deep breath and then go in and try it again.

Right.

It is the way you start the book.

And we don't meet Rick Bragg's mother right away.

And I just got so focused on Ava who followed her through her life.

And I think these women probably cooked until their eighties.

I suspect so.

Seventy thousand meals in their lifetime.

And, you know, there was no going out for a quick hamburger.

Every--every meal.

And these were two or three hot meals a day.

It wasn't just cereal for breakfast.

And then--.

Right.

You know a sandwich at lunchtime.

It was hot bread three times a day and--.

Who was your favorite character in this book?

Oh, I think either Ava or--actually I really like Rick Bragg's mother.

I think she's quite a character, but I liked Ava a lot.

She--.

I liked her, too, once I got used to her.

Yeah.

All right.

We're going to get this in the oven.

We have this--we're kind of compromising.

I think we're doing this at four hundred.

I want a crispy exterior and I have minimized the amount of fat in there.

I didn't add any of this, but this is you know, if you want an extra kick of grease, this is it, right?

This is it.

So I haven't really cooked this because it is so messy.

Oh, and I should have put a little of this on top.

So I get to talking.

I'm going to put some tomato sauce on top.

My favorite character was Sis.

Oh, yes.

She's one of the--there, there're probably about nine women in this story.

But Sis--she's tough.

She is tough.

She swears every second word and--and but she's so clever and she's funny and you get onto these characters.

So--.

We meet Sis, I think when she comes to deliver a baby.

And it has one of my favorite stories where when the baby's born, somebody has to carry the baby through the house.

And you talk and it hears voices and it becomes accustomed to people in the family talking.

Oh, we're going to take a little break here and get ready for the second part.

We're going to talk about more of the characters and what actually happens to Rick and his family.

And so we'll be right back.

But in the meantime, we have some pictures of the characters in this book, some of Ava's and some of Margaret.

That's Rick Bragg's mother.

And we'll be right back.

My guest today is Leda MacIntyre Hall, and we are cooking up a storm from the south, right?

Great Southern food and--.

Good Southern food.

Right.

And tell us what you're going to be doing in this second part.

I'm going to make a red cabbage and carrot slaw and some cornbread.

Cornbread.

Oh, it's the perfect--it's the perfect combination.

I'm going to be doing collard greens, and it is a very typical vegetable in this region.

And up here, too, people are using it up here.

But these things are almost like I said, they're either like bath mats or placemats.

These collard greens are huge.

So I am chopping them.

I'm going to start with onion and then I'll cook the greens, I'll add garlic, and then we'll add some vinegar.

And I even have a dollop of my bacon drippings in here.

I mean, you've got to have some authenticity and then we'll cook and cook and cook this.

I took the stems out.

Usually, there is a thick stem in the center, but it takes a while to cook that.

So I've taken those stems out and I'm going to add the onion.

Now, we've got to have a little kick here and you could even add some more red pepper if you wanted to.

I mean, every cook has her way of doing it.

Just make sure I've got the right.

That's one advantage of cooking with the dabs and dollops is you--.

Yeah.

You can make it spicier or milder or throw in something that's a favorite of yours.

Well, we were talking about some of these books lately that have been focused on Southern regions.

And I think people have been really interested in the life of writers like Rick.

He's from Alabama.

He's a Pulitzer prize winner.

And it takes us to another place, another time.

And we learn more about people in our country.

Did you like the book?

I did like the book very much.

I thought he writes with tremendous emotion and feeling and humor.

I find some of the stories sort of laugh out loud, funny, and which is partly the story and partly in his head, and his telling of the characters.

He laughs with them.

He enjoys life.

I love what he is calling his-- the small boys, nitwit boys, and not just the boys, the nitwit boys.

And then he has his description I was telling you about.

Ava has children.

She's the one that was the stubborn cook.

And these children are all out before a storm.

They're all out in the dirt flying and she wants to get everybody into the cabin.

And this is really interesting talking about the way she talks to the Lord.

At the same time, there's this huge storm is coming and the kids get all excited and worried.

And there's a description.

'Ava scooped up my mother, the baby, from the dirt like a good shortstop.'.

Can you see that?

Yes, it's very vivid.

It's very vivid.

And that's--that's his style of writing.

And I like it.

So--.

So one of the things on this slaw is she-- says you have to chop things coarse.

That you don't want old wilted slaw.

OK. She says to chop the cabbage coarsely and the carrots instead of grading them like many people would cut the carrot.

Like you're whittling a stick.

See, that's interesting.

So that-- so you get sort of chunks of carrot in the slaw.

I--I think I'll leave these to take home.

I just think they're amazing--collard green without the center stem.

And I'm going to add some of the fewer pieces.

I did as I said, I added some bacon drippings.

I'm going to add some water.

She said that you've got to keep your eye on liquid so these don't burn.

And I will add a little vinegar and salt and I can always add more onion, too.

I'm sure she didn't have that.

But--but I'll use the vinegar seen in a lot of Southern cooking and other cooking styles as well.

It does add a kick and it's good.

And it's a balance against tartness.

And sometimes even a little sweetness, too.

Throw a little vinegar in.

So this actually said to cook two hours, but I am sure it's because that's the stems were in there.

And so look at that.

That's pretty that way you made the carrots.

So it does--it is.

Looks like carving a peg or something.

So then--.

And throughout the book you've got this cooking, cooking going on and mayonnaise, yes, there's a lot of mayonnaise, isn't there?

And a lot of pepper.

A teaspoon of black pepper in this coleslaw.

And get the lid on here.

And I have to pay attention that this liquid doesn't all evaporate.

In fact, I'm going to get some more in case I get in trouble.

I'm putting in my little dab of pepper and my little dab of garlic salt here.

Good.

See more garlic, more garlic.

See, growing up, we didn't have garlic.

So I find it fascinating that various parts of the country did have garlic.

My background was in Central Europe and they did not cook at that time with garlic.

Now we talk about more characters in the book.

You had--you had someone in your family that was cooking, too, that you-- cooked by smidgens and dabs, right?

My paternal grandmother, my mama also cooked by smidgens and dabs and she had a pie that she made.

That was one of my father's favorite pies.

It's called the vinegar pie and--.

That's interesting, isn't it?

Vinegar pie.

I ask her for the recipe.

And of course, she sort of laughed and said, 'Well, it's butter the size of a walnut and kind of this much flour'.

And so one summer when I was there, I think we made 10 vinegar pies over the course of two weeks and she would do this much flour and I would have her put it in a bowl and measure it and eventually distilled a recipe from--from her smidgens and dabs and handfuls and maybe a coffee cup full of sugar.

Well, you know, we--we've even on this program, Dinner & a Book, we've gone from a little bit-- using a cup, always measuring to I know how much this is going to take.

It's three shakes.

And I put it in.

I did have a guest who said, 'Why don't you do mise en plus before you start, measure everything out and put it in a little dish, each one?'.

I said, well I've done that, done that.

But after a while you kind of learn how much you want of something and-- but it's just so interesting how far we've come in our cooking.

And I'm saying--.

Also in telling when things are done, one of the funny things is Rick would keep asking her how long to cook something and she'd go, well, hun, you cook it till it's--till it's ready.

And she claimed to be able to do that by smell.

That she could smell when the cornbread was done or smell when the biscuits were ready.

And some people do cook that way.

It's so true.

And everything you've made is colorful.

And you're going to do now some cornbread,.

Cornbread.

Yes.

And this is the finished product.

Yes.

This is--this is what it looks like.

And it's baked in an iron skillet.

The best.

One of Margaret's funny things was, you know, every cook needs an iron skillet, hon.

Shame on you.

If you don't have one, go out and get one.

And often, actually, in the south an iron skillet is a wedding present.

Well--.

Just in case the new cook doesn't-- they don't have one on their own.

My mom had an iron skillet.

I don't.

But I have a friend who has about six and I'm going to ask her for one.

I've got to get in that habit and I'm putting in some more rings here.

I know this is tougher collard--collard greens than I've ever used, but they're going to look pretty.

Sure.

Yes, they will.

And if we have to cook them a little later, we'll do it, too, so that we've we like the colorful language.

He is funny.

Even with this nasty Ava, when she's young, she is hilarious.

And you have to say, you know, she had something there, she gets married and that's what she's supposed to do.

Cook.

Cook.

And I had a mother who said, I'm not going to cook.

I don't like this.

She was not like Ava.

But she said, and why can't we be like gypsies?

Let's put our food in one bowl and we each get a spoon and that's it.

So I kind of had that influence, too.

But interestingly enough, the men cooked.

Yes, they did.

And her--her husband, not so much, but her father, her husband's grandfather.

And there are several recipes from uncles.

And so--so it wasn't just the--the women.

Well, there was a lot of repetition in the food, too.

So one could, you know, finally learn how to do that.

Nobody was trying Thai cuisine and Indian food.

I mean, it was pretty--it was pretty basic, but they knew how to make it delicious, they knew the drippings and this sort of thing.

So I--did-- we talked about our book and what we liked about it.

Did you--did you think it was a good representation of Alabama at the time?

We weren't there.

I don't want to offend anybody from Alabama.

My guess is it's a very good representation of--of the South, of people taking care of each other, feeding each other.

Nobody was ever sent away.

Somebody showed up at the door, there was always another biscuit or another plate.

And I think part of what held the family together was this tradition of singing and laughing together and cooking together and having familiar foods.

Well, you know--.

And eating together.

This second part is gone so fast.

We're going to set our table.

You're invited to our little town in northeastern Alabama.

We're going to have dinner and come on and join us.

We'll be right back.

And, well, as you are watching, we're going to have some more pictures of some of the people in this story.

We'll be right back.

My guest today is Leda MacIntyre Hall, and we've been discussing Rick Braggs, the best cook in the world, and that was his mother, Margaret.

And we have some really tasty food.

We hope it's tasty.

Why don't you--well, I'll just mention I did the collard greens with vinegar and onion and garlic, and I made a meatloaf.

I can't wait to try.

It's supposed to be crispy and tell us what you made.

I made a red cabbage slaw and a skillet of cornbread and for dessert, a peach blueberry cobbler.

It's very colorful and very typical, isn't it?

Very typical.

Yes.

And so this is an honest to goodness 100 percent southern meal right here.

What was your favorite part of the book?

You know, one of my favorite parts of the book was the story about Grandpa Charlie, who made Axhead Stew.

He took a big pot to the rail yard, put an ax head in it and some tomatoes.

And as the hobos came off the train, they would all add a bit of salt or a can of corn.

And before long, they had soup for everybody.

And I thought that was a very nice--.

And it was ox head soup?

Ax head.

Oh, Ax!

He actually took the head of an ax and put it in the pot.

Isn't that clever?

Oh, I never would have thought of that.

Well, I--I love the humor.

I loved the writing.

I love the descriptions of scooping up the baby from the lawn.

And like a shortstop, he was very good at that sort of description.

And I thought, oh, this is going to be a long book, but it went very fast.

And I try to keep track of all the characters.

And I thought, don't worry about not knowing all the names, just enjoy it.

Just live with them.

Right.

And that's what we did.

Yeah.

Thank you for joining me today.

Thank you.

It was good to have you.

Thank you.

And we're so glad you tuned in to watch us today.

Remembering good food, good friends and good books make for a very good life.

We'll see you next time.

This WNIT local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.

Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart, celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.