Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart, celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.

Rivers, more than any road, technology or political leader, have shaped the course of human civilization.

They've opened frontiers found in cities, settled borders and fed billions, and they can destroy everything in their path.

They are a powerful global force, more critical than ever to our future.

Today's book is Rivers of Power by Lawrence C. Smith.

Let's learn more with my guests, one of my favorite guests, Evie Kirkwood.

Welcome back.

Hello, Gail.

Nice to be here.

It's so good to have you here, particularly for this very important book.

I learned a lot about Rivers.

Oh, yeah.

There's a lot of detail.

There is.

There is.

But, you know, it is so well developed.

I mean, going back 12000 years ago when rivers, you know, from rain started forming and--.

Brought me back to my elementary school days learning about Mesopotamia and Tigris and Euphrates, all of that.

The cradle of civilization.

All of that to current modern technology with dams.

There's a little bit of everything there.

There truly is.

And if you are interested in our water sources and I happened to have a family member who is so concerned about our future water, she says don't ever sell your condo in the Midwest because that's going to be a safe place to live.

For water.

For water.

And so I've been--I've been facing this from my family member who is so worried about our future water sources.

It's like going to be the high commodity in demand, right?

And we see that out West.

And right now, people are buying rivers, they're buying the water.

Wealthy people in the United States are buying rivers in South America for this.

And, you know, you mentioned about drinking water.

So one of the first things that I'm doing here is making fruit infused water.

Super easy to make, right?

You can buy fruit infused water already bottled, but save the plastic and save the river.

Absolutely.

Single-Use Plastics are not great.

So you're putting some citrus in here.

Just citrus.

So I just have lemon, orange and lime putting it all in here.

Many people get their drinking water around the world from rivers, right?

Yes, they do.

So I just thought that makes sense here.

So I'm just going to plunk these all in with some ice, give it a little stir, and then I'll pop that in the refrigerator.

Pop it right in there.

And, you know-- And people are buying these big jugs now and they're serving this as part of their buffet or their--their bar and this sort of thing.

And I've seen it with all kinds of melons and cucumbers.

Oh you can use any fruit.

Anything.

Yes.

Mint, mint sprigs.

But I thought it would go well with your entree.

Which will be salmon.

And of course, there is a lot of discussion about salmon in the book.

The Wild, The Farm Raised versus the Wild.

And I think after reading it, I don't know about you, but I think I like the wild salmon concept much better than having them forced into little rings in the ocean with antibiotics.

And--and just-- I don't know.

What do you think about that?

Well, you know, there are some sustainably farmed fish.

I say do your research, right?

Because even some of the wild caught fish can be caught in irresponsible ways.

So do your research and see what makes you comfortable.

And if you want to buy it from a certain country and you feel safe like you say, do your research.

And I--I've thought about this and actually I've got the oven heating up for this salmon and you are going to be making a special dessert.

I am.

So whereas you and I were planning for this book, we said, whoa, what are we going to make?

And you said, let's do a fish theme.

And you said you would do salmon.

And I said, Fish dessert, fish dessert.

I have no idea what is a fish dessert?

But in Japan they make taiyaki, which are cakes shaped like fish.

And I said, that's perfect.

This is a taiyaki pan and I'll be actually making a batter and some fillings to go inside the cake.

So that's what we're going to make.

I can just see you at a fair selling your--your cakes, your little fish cakes.

Oh, so clever.

So clever.

I did want to mention, though, you were talking about the salmon.

And one of the great things about this particular book is it ties in well with a documentary.

That WNIT is--has done on the St. Joseph River right here in our viewing area, which is terrific.

It really is, because the St. Joe River really was an important river.

I mean, you know, not only for the Native Americans, but, you know, this whole area was discovered by coming down the St. Joe River and taking a look at the land here and the history says that it was Havilah Beardsley, who I don't know if he stepped out of his boat, but he founded the city of Elkhart.

And he actually brought a marble fireplace from Italy down the river to put in his house in Elkhart Oh, my.

No kidding?

My goodness.

I mean, so many stories of rivers and we are really determined to clean up these rivers.

And I am so impressed by the water person.

I don't know what else to call him in Elkhart that sees to the fact that we are cleaning up the St. Joe River and fish are reappearing that had disappeared and we're trying to get people not to throw their--their ground water or whatever you do, let it go into the river with the pesticides.

Yes.

So I better get started here.

I'm going to get carried away.

So tell me what you're doing.

And you were talking about the fish in the St. Joseph River.

And I have some pictures over here in our little centerpiece that we look at.

And these are all fish that are now found in the St. Joseph River because, in fact, it is much, much cleaner than it used to be.

So some of the fish that you can find now in the St. Joseph River include, of course, catfish and blue gills, but also pike and smallmouth bass is a huge popular fishery here in St. Joseph County, as well as the salmon, which is a special breed that is a fall run salmon called Skamania.

And I thought that was a nice tie in to what it is that you're making, yeah.

It's all found in the river I live in a condo on the river, and the fishermen come out all hours of the day to fish.

And it is so interesting to see them out there.

And I'm so pleased to see that they trust the water and the fish.

I don't know.

I haven't questioned them about it, but--but anyway, I'm making some rice.

We did have a chapter on Vietnam and how the river, the Mekong Delta, was a determiner of the frontier and the division between North Vietnam and South Vietnam.

And I did go on the Mekong River into the Delta and--and found it fascinating.

So in any case, we're going to do the rice.

And then we talked about salmon and of course, Norway's salmon fishing, raising of salmon, I should say.

And I like to do a very simple touch here on my salmon.

I like using Poupon, Gray Poupon and--and that's it.

And I know you can see recipes.

I mean, the newspapers have to fill up their food pages.

So they have all these wonderful recipes for--for I call them sauces that kind of dim--dim the flavor.

Mask the flavor.

And so I like sometimes I use mayonnaise with--with this dijon, but it really gives a nice flavor, a little pecan flavor.

And I don't have to add any salt and this is the way I do it.

And so we're doing this in honor of the topic of growing salmon, and we were saying it can be while it can be farm raised and after reading, after doing a little research from this book, I kind of am tending toward wild.

But at the same time, I want to know where that wild spot is.

And to know whether it is safe.

And so I'm going to put this in the oven and I've got two containers here.

I am simmering this filling I'm making--using two fillings.

This one is chopped, dried apricots and raisins with a little bit of apricot preserves and some sugar, some fresh squeezed orange juice and some orange zest.

And that's going to go inside our cakes.

Just basically I'm simmering it until it's kind of getting thick, which it is now, which is great, doesn't take long.

And then this has to cool down to room temperature before we make the cakes.

So I'm just going to set that off to the side.

I'm so excited about these fish cakes.

We always think of fish cakes, maybe like crab cakes or something of that nature.

Could you make a fish in this little mold?

Yeah, we will.

Yeah, we'll do that.

OK, yeah.

And then the other traditional filling is sweetened bean paste, which basically you can just get at many Asian markets.

It's basically just mashed cooked beans and sugar.

That's the traditional filling.

My apricots, a little different spin.

I like a little of that fruit flavor.

I really do.

Yeah.

We'll make them both.

Well, you know, there's so much information in this book and their chapters on, you know, what-what do rivers really do besides providing a wonderful environment to live in but fish and they settled borders and they will develop borders.

Cities develop along rivers.

I mean, you can just imagine the topics in this book.

And I think the author is totally in love with rivers, don't you?

He did a lot of--lots of research, which I appreciate.

And, you know, one of my favorite stories was the, which I didn't know anything about, the Harmons doctrine, which the--the attorney general was responding to the Mexican government that was complaining that the Rio Grande wasn't reaching Mexico anymore.

Farmers were abandoning their fields and they expressed concern, rightly so.

Farmers were losing their livelihood.

And the attorney general at the time, this was 1895, said, you know what, the US can do whatever we want with our water.

It's our water.

He didn't think that, for instance, the Columbia River comes from Canada into the United States.

Canada could say the same thing.

So ultimately, he backed off.

His theory, his whatever.

It slid into the past and nobody mentioned it again.

Now, there are, worldwide, there are treaties and international agreements that protect the use of water because really water belongs to the planet.

Right?

It really does.

And we have to share these important resources.

We're going to take a little break here and we're going to come back and see you mixing all this up.

And in the meantime, we want to show you some shots of our river in this area of the St. Joseph River.

And it was the topic of a documentary, as you mentioned.

We come back, we're going to talk a little bit more about your part in that documentary.

We'll be right back.

My guest is Evie Kirkwood.

The book is Rivers of Power, and we are powering our way through the food now.

And tell us what you're doing.

I see some fish paste here.

The sweet bean paste.

And I'm making the batter for these little taiyaki fish cakes, which are an Asian dessert.

So that's what we're going to make.

I'm just mixing up a batter here.

So clever.

Yeah.

So so I've already got the flour and the baking powder.

This is very similar to a pancake batter.

A little bit thinner, though.

Egg, milk, sugar, flour.

I always add a little whole wheat flour.

That's essentially the batter and my taiyaki pan is heating up.

You like to have it nice and hot.

I can see the heat coming out and you just--you're going to have to develop a line here.

Fish cakes.

Yes.

Evie's fish cakes.

Right.

You know, you were talking about rivers of power.

One of the sections in the book that I really liked was talking about dams and dams over the centuries, you know, what they--what they've done for us, creating energy, right?

Yes and yes.

Stored energy.

But there's a downside.

And that's really discussed in the book.

It is about fish and sediment.

Trapping sediment, which isn't great.

We need this sediment to move in to make deltas to enrich the soil.

So what are we doing in the United States?

Well, you know, in some cases, we're trying to pull out the dams, right?

Yes.

And they have--they have created free flowing rivers now.

And there are countries in--in the world who are still building dams.

And I--I found this sort of really fascinating.

What are we doing now that in 50 years we're going to say, wait a minute?

We should not have done it this way, right?

Well, you know, and you talk about using your river for recreation, for fun, or should it be there to make money for you?

I mean, selling property for big buildings.

It is.

It is--it kind of tells what kind of civilization you live in by what you do with your natural resource.

And of course, I think one of the great things is rivers now are being rediscovered by cities as wonderful recreation areas.

Yes.

And that's your area isn't it?

I love it that there's so many parks even right here along our own St. Joseph River.

Right?

There are plenty of parks right along the river.

And you know all about that.

That's a great place for visitors and local families to enjoy.

From Hillsdale, Michigan, all the way to St. Joseph, Michigan.

Now did you oil your mold?

I did, although this is a nonstick pan.

Oh, it is.

And you can get no stick or just like a traditional cast iron.

This is no stick.

I put a little oil.

I think it gives it a little bit of a browner color.

And you have a little more indentation.

You can see actually the scales and that sort of thing.

So the first batch I used the bean paste and then I'll make a couple more with our apricot and raisin.

So how long are you going to cook these?

You know, you just keep looking.

You just keep looking.

And that's what it says.

It depends on how high your heat is.

Your stove is a little hotter than mine at home.

Yes, it does.

You think that I can turn my head and all of a sudden you're cooking and it's--it's--.

Yeah.

So it--because it's a nonstick pan, literally, you can just kind of open it up and check them and flip it over if you don't think they're quite done and check.

So, yep.

The other side is not quite done there.

So you're going to, you're going to cook that a little bit longer and then we're going to do some with fruit.

My rice is ready, almost ready.

It's absorbing and rice for me is always tricky.

And I, I, I like the recipes where you just put the water in, heated up, put the rice in and then miraculously cook.

I don't have to worry about it burning and all of that.

Yeah.

My salmon is in the oven and we were talking about some of the issues in the book besides now the removal of dams, some of the countries that are in--in Africa or in Asia, they're putting in dams.

I mean, it's like I don't know, it's like living it all over again.

In Ethiopia, the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam, they applied for World Bank money to build it and they were denied.

So the citizens of Ethiopia said, let's do it ourselves and it will be larger than the Aswan Dam.

It's going to be huge.

And the impoundment the reservoir created will take several years to fill.

That's incredible.

It is amazing.

Really amazing.

And there are there there are battles going on about the Blue Nile.

In Ethiopia, and it is--it really we see all kinds of skirmishes developing over water and who owns the water and who does it belong to and what you know, St. Joe River, who owns the St. John River?

Do we?

Yes, I like to think we all do.

Do you think that will come up in the documentary that's going to be on WNIT?

I should mention the name of the documentary.

And I always have to, like, remind myself then, now and always the St. Joseph River story.

And there's a great website that WNIT has that accompanies the documentary.

You helped develop that.

I did.

Well, some of the activities.

There was a team of naturalists and educators that created some family activities, everything from learning what fish live in the river to sampling for macro invertebrates.

And all those activities can be downloaded from that WNIT website celebrating the St. Joe.

WNIT.org and then this long title will pop up and you just click in there.

And before you know it, you find those activities.

Find those activities.

You can do with your children.

If you don't have children, you do it with your spouse or your friend and have a good time.

And I'm so glad you were a part of that.

It was a natural fit for you.

Great fun wonderful to celebrate the St. Joe River.

Well, and I grew up on it.

It was--it was an area of recreation.

It is now.

And people do complain about so many boats and the noise, but it only lasts for a month or two in the summer.

And people after the Fourth of July, the activity sort of quiets down.

And every day the fishermen are out there and it's a great place to watch for birds.

Great blue herons, birds.

all kinds of--.

Lots of wildlife.

I have some friends who are always letting their neighbors know what they've just spotted.

And it's something Cormoran.

Then we have this tail, something or other, and they just love it.

And I think that would be a great activity with your children.

I have to say, I did like this book.

It is ponderous.

Somebody called it a prose poem and it must have been somebody who liked to study water, the rivers of power.

Fascinating.

And if you have children that are interested in science, this you know, I'm not saying a small child.

I'd say somebody maybe 14 plus.

Yeah, I agree.

You learn so much about history and water.

And I, I can't wait to see this documentary.

And the St. Joe River has had a big influence on my life, mainly as recreation.

And we take it for granted.

Right.

We drive over it all the time.

All of us that live along the river, we drive back and forth.

But we don't really think about what it does.

And, you know, sometimes I just stop and think, OK, so it starts in Hillsdale, Michigan, flows all the way to St. Joseph, Michigan, dumps into Lake Michigan, and then eventually through the Great Lakes.

It ends up in the ocean.

Yes.

And, you know, when you think--.

Goes up and down and around the St. Lawrence and hits out in the Atlantic.

That's what rivers do.

They essentially feed our ocean.

Yes.

Yes.

And I think it's amazing.

Oh, these are so--I just love this.

Evie, You're so creative.

And I do appreciate your taking part in this and leading the effort here with your pretty little fish in the cattails and your food.

And you're making some more here.

I might as well.

I got the batter, I'll just keep going.

You can talk and cook at the same time.

Well, we're going to--we're going to set our table.

We want you to come and join us.

We'll talk more about the St. Joe River and the book.

And so if you're interested in water, this is the book for you.

So let's take a look at some of the footage from the documentary on the St. Joe River, and then we'll be right back.

Our book is Rivers of Power, and my guest is Evie Kirkwood, who knows all about recreation and rivers and what they do for us.

And you made these wonderful little fish.

Tell us about them.

We have a feast right?

When you wanted to do a fish theme.

The taiyaki fish cakes are a dessert in several Asian countries, primarily Japan.

So the batter fish, battered fish are filled with, in our case, apricot raisin filling and that sweet bean paste.

So it's--they're cute They're cute.

Everything you do is so well thought out.

I'm so impressed.

Well, and we've since we did talk about salmon, we mentioned about Norwegian farming of salmon.

We have salmon with a mustard sauce, Gray Poupon, and then we have rice because we talked about Vietnam and they're growing of rice as one--as one of their main export products.

Because the rivers are used for irrigating those rice paddies.

And we have pictures of that in the book.

And I just want to say, yes, the rice--infused water infused that you made.

Yes.

And so we are surrounded here by all kinds of references to rivers.

Yes.

And of your little fish are right here with us.

And so we do want to mention about several things in the book that we found very fascinating.

Pharmaceuticals in the rivers.

No no.

Right.

When you have medicines, whether they're antibiotics or hormones or whatever, don't flush them down the toilet.

Essentially, all of that goes eventually into our rivers.

And there are some really fascinating research studies that are illustrated in the book about that altering the life cycle of fish.

So there are proper ways to dispose of medicines.

Talk to your doctor, talk to your pharmacy.

And even makeup that has these-- it's--It's terrible.

And one last thing, great research also showing that rivers and flowing water provide healing powers and reduce stress.

So take a walk by the river.

Right?

Right.

Yes.

I feel so stress free right now after discussing this book.

Thank you again for bringing your smarts and your charm and your humor to Dinner and a Book.

And remember, good food, good friends, good books, make for a great life.

See you next time.

This WNIT local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.

Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart, celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.